Sivin Kit's Adventures

Archive for November, 2005

I was interviewed this year by a “intelligent” young lady for her thesis. And she was kind enough to send me some of the quotations .. I’m not surprised by what I said, but I was a little challenged by myself especially the way I phrased it and after reading what’s transcribed I’m brought back to what’s important for me again.

“No one agrees with everything in the family but we’re still family. So I find a family is a more useful model for church…than a company for example. If you don’t like the company you will leave. Or you get fired. You know, reprimanded. With the family it’s a different dynamic.”

“a place where unchurched people can come. Or people who are not Christians can come to explore the faith…With no pressure for them to convert immediately they can take their time. And also a place for Christians to work out their faith in today’s reality. … For people who need a place to grow, or were like me, who had questions, a place that questions will be taken seriously…A place where we would learn to follow Christ, and also invite others to follow in a safe environment.”

“learning to accept people as they are, even though we don’t approve of everything they think or do, and also believing that there is always room to change. They don’t have to remain as they are. I think that would in some sense summarise what I think we would like to be in church…”

“as members of the church we’ll see our self as someone who represents God in our own context. … And as a church, that consciously we will do things together to be the Jesus for others. … [And] in order to do that we need to connect with people who are needy, even the poor…we need to be with people who are not like us. … So our life is not just ’bout our career, consumption, I believe this is what being a Christian is mainly about.”

“Christianity is not just about you believe in what I believe, but you also belong. We belong together. And we become…sometimes people belong first, before they believe. There are people in my church who are not Christians, yet. They take their time, they belong with us, they’re part of our family. The day they want to believe, is up to them. But we will encourage them. And all of us are on the journey of becoming. So then everyone is equal, no one is better than the other person.”

“If church is defined as people then…I wouldn’t leave church. But church as an organisation I’m not too sure. But…I also believe in the renewal of an organisation. ‘Cause I think that’s part of Christian faith, the Gospel…We redeem even the hopeless situation”

I’m always drawn to books on ecclesiology … I think it’s because it’s become part and parcel of my life and ministry as well as my thinking process (informally in conversations and formally in my MTheol Program) – so when this gem arrived in SUFES bookstore I grabbed it.
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It’s always nice when Elysia has a good sleep and when she’s awake she can put on those cool shades again.

I was pretty amused and somewhat intrigued to land up in some one’s dream

I felt though as usual less than perfect we had a fruitful Emergent Malaysia Open Meeting yesterday. I enjoyed reading how another person felt about the meeting and what he got out of it here.

It’s interesting how EMO seems to becoming a “label” when I originally just wanted a catchy way to say “Emergent Malaysia Open” Meeting … thus EMO meeting .. I told Alwyn perhaps it could also stand for Emergent Malaysia Oddballs!

It was good to catch up a little with Tom from Covenant Players who performed with Phil at our church worship gathering today. The last time we met was 4 years ago… he’s travelled all over the place, I’ve done so mentally i think!

Hope to catch some breath before I head off to the National Conference 2005 organized by the FES. Looking forward to see familiar faces and get to know new ones. I hear there’ll be quite a big group for my 1 and half hour workshop A9 – “Passionate Pursuit: getting passionate with God. pitfalls and stepping stones.” Check out their brochure (familiar colours huh?)!

Will be interesting to meet another contractor for the toilet renovations for the church premises tomorrow and yes … a replacement session for two couples planning to get married. Then on Tuesday, Bishop called for a last minute meeting with the pastors in the morning

I’m craving for chips again …

Understanding Biblical Urgency: Debunking Left–Behind Theology
It’s not just about our end time view’s it’s about how we see the Bible … “I believe that scripture does come to life in our world and in our lives — but not in a series of scripted disasters and wars. The Bible comes to life most of all in life–giving experiences of hope, healing, and transformation. We find the message of the Bible and Jesus’ second coming for today not by drawing detailed correlations between wars in the Middle East and biblical prophecies in Daniel or Revelation, but by opening our eyes to see God’s love in the daily events of our lives. We need to learn to see and describe our experiences of God with greater urgency — our “Aha” moments of seeing God’s passionate love for the world, seeing the Bible coming to life in day-to-day experiences.”

The Postcolonial Biblical Reader
Interested but too expensive-lah…

Cultivating the Soul
Good Bibliofile to get linked to other works

Imagining Church
Great questions … simple without being simplistic

Lecture delivered by the Archbishop of Canterbury at the Islamic University, Islamabad
I thought the venue as well as the content was noteworthy (Thanks to Jason Clark).

The Oriental Hearts and Mind Study Institute (OHMSI)
This is a is a network of individuals electronically linked to reflect, share, and exchange thoughts on core issues of mutual interest in the public space of Malaysian life (Thanks Kong Beng for the link!).

*Updated (especially Kia Meng’s section to reflect his statements and feedback from the floor) and check out a nice youngest (?) perspective from Doulos*

Thanks to Alwyn for inspiring me to revisit de Bono’s Six Thinking Hats to try to capture a pretty good emergent Malaysia open (eMo) meeting.

(covers facts, figures, information needs and gaps)

Thanks to Pastor Raj from CLGC for the usage of Crossroads Community centre at SS2, PJ.

There were 17 of us, from 8 different churches. 4 ladies and the rest gentlemen 3 Pastors, 1 Seminarian, 1 Future-emerging-on-the-way church planter(?)

Basic flow of the meeting was as following:
- I welcomed everyone & we went round introducing ourselves … sorting chairs here and there to include those who came later
- I scribbled a basic “agenda” that would keep us along the same track … everyone said ok …
- Then with a smile I shared a little bit about how Emergent Malaysia fumbled into being, and what’s been going on thus far. I went on then highlighting what hooked me into the “conversation” – “Emergent is a growing generative friendship among missional Christian leaders seeking to love our world in the Spirit of Jesus Christ.”

The topic for the morning was “Emerging Concerns & Possible Solutions in Malaysian Christianity” (which I mentioned was kind of inspired by an upcoming Dialogue with Prof. Hans Kung organized by the Council of Churches Malaysia)

Then I went on and shared my report from my participation in the recent 7th National Christian Conference organized by the Christian Federation of Malaysia with the theme “National Integration and Unity”.

The main plenary sessions I mentioned were …
(1) Harmonous Co-existence in Religious Pluralism.
- Interesting to note how some see improvement in co-existence but an interesting counter reaction is that though on surface it may be so but on the grass root level it may not be.
- I shared how I left the session feeling how “not informed” I am and overwhelmed with the information and urgency due to my ignorance as a pastor and as a Christian.
- When a respondent talked about the need for us to speak up and speak up wisely and intelligently REALLY struck me.

(2) Our Journey toward National Integration.
- the phrase “social contract” stood out through out the session for me and what I further was drawn to was how our mindset has changed or have been “conditioned” without even realising it.
- This session made me want to read the Constitution of Malaysia and ask why some amendments were made (an extra question was .. how are we involved or not involved in the process?).

(3) Sustaining and Enhancing Integration through strategies of change.
- the question of what does partnership means was crucial and where are the areas we may have neglected as a church is striking.
- I was drawn especially to the challenge to create space for discussion on fundamental issues.
- of course, “commitment” and “counter-cultural” are still ringing in my head.

some questions and comments emerged after I shared.
- ‘being committed to the country as a church” – what does this mean?
- “our church today is spending too much time within 4 walls, a little time with family, no time with society to build the country…”
- is there a danger of paralysis of analysis…?
- Some words and phrases that cropped up were “heart of God for kingdom”, “ministry of total person”, “holism demands focus on social justice”, “too much energy spent on prayer, overseas speakers, events organized around personality – what about coming together for sake of nation?” “imagination”, ‘organic’… “butterfly-effect” …

Next Alwyn who needed to stand rather than sit to speak shared on his take on the date with the NECF Research Commission some of us were part of.

He mentioned …
- perhaps it’s not very helpful to be overtly focus on distinctives. Should look at how to help the Church.
- does Emergent caters for a particular segment of youth who are “doubtful” of slogans, and “definite” answers?
- he took note of one of those present admitting perhaps the older generation failed to mentor the younger ones …. and yet he was glad that younger people are thinking through such issues and thus challenged the “older” generation to take up leadership.

Feedback from the floor was …
- Continue to engage with NECF. God given opportunities let’s respond.
- the impression of people in NECF Research Commission are quite different from people in the Prayer Commission.
- People might think that Emergent has a unified theology. But that is inaccurate. Probably, methodology is common. (Check out Scot McKnight’s articles)
- Why did NECF invite us? Out of interest to find out. Not so much out of concern of heresy.
- Continue to believe that Emergent has a role to play in Christianity in M’sia. We must BELIEVE it and take ownership

Kia Meng then shared while sitting with his notebook on his lap. He was surprised by the circle seating arrangement of the “date” and the informal atmosphere. He then went on sharing his reflection then merely reporting …

o are Youth today shallow? Is those conversing in Emergent an anomaly? [but NECF Research Comm is also an anomaly.] Pastors seem to be more concerned on methods & programmes. Emergent and NECF Res Comm shd look for “common enemy”
o Capitalism/consumerism is a likely enemy…. Hence, lack of time…
o 80-90% of our lives are determined by the economic climate. The kind of Gospel that we preached is det by the current economic climate. Are we willing to destabilize the “wealth status quo”?
o Ellul: Truth in the bible held in tension. God’s sovereignty – Man’s responsibilities.
o Emergent more comfortable with ambiguities
o We need to bring in sociology, psychology & other social sciences. But not to supercede theology.
o Current marketplace forum ASSUMES that everyone wants to be a particular breed of Christian. But how about those who prefer a more altenative view?
o Everything about society is always about techniques/means. Less about the goal.
- felt that his generation is more aware of our limitation to know Objective Truth. Less sanguine about KNOWING the Final Truth We may feel that truth can be oppressive.
§ we must show that Truth (Jesus) is loving, personal etc etc. Embodiment of truth
§ Most mega churches are inculcating a self-interested experiential spirituality (narcissistic) amongst the youth.
§ Common dissatisfaction with modernity (autonomous self as the final judge of truth), consumerism etc.
§ How do we move forward?
· If ppl see truth as oppressive, how do we present the Gospel as freedom?
- Don’t assume older generation already knows the age-old questions & answers.

Feedback from the Floor …
§ Probably we must show that Emergent is more than style; but the key is content
- When The Normal Christian Life (Watchman Nee) was published: not enough people practised it, hence it was perceived as abnormal.
- Emergent did not come with an agenda. Not to sell anything. We are journeying together.

After that we talked about a 3 in 1 party in January 14 Saturday .. post-Christmas, New Year and Pre-Chinese New year thus 3 in 1!

We broke into two groups with one for pastors and the other for what we called “the rest of the world” (lay leaders). We were supposed to email our discoveries to the yahoogroup.

Some lingered in duets or triads.

Usually the “lingering” conversations are very valuable and suprising.

After that some of us “sold out” and went to the Burger King next door for lunch and continued until around 3pm.
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*Updated: I respaced the paragraphs after realising how unpleasing to the eyes they are – the medium is the message*

Thanks to Alwyn for being the faster one to post his thoughts here on NECF-EMO Chat and David-hedonese sharing his feelings on That’s Not ‘Generous’…

I’ll start by trying to work on a Disclaimer first:

Disclaimer: The views on sivinkit.net do not represent the opinions or positions of Bangsar Lutheran Church, the Lutheran Church in Malaysia & Singapore or Emergent Malaysia. The views represented here are solely the personal views of the author. Please contact me via email at sivinkit@gmail.com if you have any problems with any of the content.

Now that wasnt too hard …

And I shall begin with a story …
Actually, I wanted to go and play frisbee during a break at the recent NECF Youth Workers Consultation 2005 but then I landed up in “conversation” with Siew Foong from the NECF Research Commission and we had a fruitful discussion on a wide variety of issues ranging from Brian Mclaren to the state of pastors in Malaysia, etc.

The next thing leads to the leads (in terms of emails) and we’re sitting with the commission members for a nice cup of coffee having a in my opinion a stimulating dialogue (by the way I enjoyed the lunch conversations too where we talked about the latest craze on apostles – I’ll leave that for another day).

Anyway, prior to the event on 16 November 2005, Saturday morning. I asked for some questions to spur the mind to focus a bit more … and the following came back under the theme “”Church and Christian Living in the Postmodern World”":

”
1. What does it mean to be an authentic Christian/church?
2. What is the true role of self? Does right living means denial of self?
3. Is the Church being irrelevant?
4. should Christian conviction (belief) be secondary to compassion?
5. Does current theology restrict rather than free?

Came across the phrase ‘postmodern Christian,’ it may be referring to Christian living in the postmodern era, or Christian with postmodern ideas or something else, regardless what are the opportunities for evangelism and provisions for authentic Christian living in these pomo ideas? “

To start with we had some prelimary introductions (there were Alwyn, Kia Meng, Yew Khuen- the non-blogger- and myself from Emergent Malaysia – a informal network .. a young friend who claims to be a modernist came along to add spice!) and then trying to share how we landed up (or fumbled into) being called Emergent Malaysia.

The facilitator felt we were spending a little too much time on “us” rather than what we thought and what were our concerns then we went into loads of free flow discussions revolving somewhat to the questions above.

I actually did a Mindmap of ideas but didn’t manage to go through the, systematically as the conversations, back and forth clarifications and responsed were very dynamic. I think a lot centred on question 3 as we also tried to warp our minds around another question is how we viewed “Malaysian evangelicalism”?

Here are some areas and comments that surfaced in no particular order: (Someone/Another one = NECF commission or observer, one of us = take your guess who?, I = definateoly me .. I own up!) :

- Someone said that we didn’t come with an agenda to sell anything or to provide solutions but just to share what’s on our mind and how we are dealing with it. This is absolutely *grin* true …
- Another one encouraged us by saying it’s good to see younger folk wreslting with issues about being and doing church in our generation.
- One of us shared how the “gospel” he was introduced to left him dry and beign shown a wider vision of the “Gospel” (here names like NT Wright, and Jacques Ellul, and René Girard came in)
- someone noticed the words like “conversation”, “missional”, “praxis”, “story” etc. that keep popping up and asked how does that relate to where we are and what we’re doing.

- one of us talked about the “mode” of discourse and how we tend to favor a more “conversational” approach as opposed to a more top down lecture style and how that reflects the predisposition to listen first …
- I was suprised when the name Pannenberg came into the discussion Brian McLaren was mentioned less than 4 times, Dallas Willardat least once Stanley Grenz a couple of times, Kevin Vanhoozer,/a> and Michael Horton definately at least once. Sneaked in Robert Jenson’s name at the end when we are asked to widen our reading *grin* I think I mentioned Luther and Lesslie Newbigin here and there (maybe a little too much Luther from me until I had to do the Benediction!)

- At some points I felt that there were obvious differences in the way we view how we should look at the state of the Malaysian church especially when it related to the emerging younger generation. There was a sense of “us vs. them” where as I would have prefered (1) a more “we” approach (2) seeing the wider picture of our existing church cultures – from leaders to families, etc.
- I also shared my frustration with the lack of integration of theology, spirituality and ministry from the perspective of a pastor … too much “talk” tends towards mere discussions on methodology.

- Someone asked whether the way we are questioning the status quo of popular youth ministry methods is abnormal and the majority actually don’t even ask these questions.
- one of us shared .. at times we do feel alone .. but the there seem to be others who are on the same journey .. perhaps we are a minority (no stats to show for this one .. just a gut feeling)
- Someone gave affirmation that at least there are some among us who are “thinking” and “wrestling” with issues in a more reflective manner – and the Agora was mentioned side by side with Emergent Malaysia in the same sentance .

- someone mentioned we shouldn’t throw away the old language … one of us replied we are not …
- one of us talked about the need for propositions and not denying it but seek to see and present how the story is encoded in the proposition.
- one of us talked about theological boundaries and then the centred set and bounded set terminology cropped in a little.
- one of us talked about how the “gospel” could be misused to oppress ..
- Someone mentioned the threats we are facing increasingly these days and talked about urgency.

- one of us tried to bringout the difference between a sentence and proposition.
- Someone highlighted the effects of modernity and how he’s come through bruised and tired of modernity.
- one of us mentioned the consumerism we see in the church today.
- Someone clarified that ours is a cultural critic.
- I shared how as a pastor I operate with a variety of languages … and different levels of discussion and even though I enjoy times like this where stimulating back and forth conversations which as more than one syllable words come up .. most of the time while being aware of this I talk more “normally” in a church setting. I think I mention Francis Schaeffer somewhere here.

- we mentioned postmodernity in passing here and there but interestingly and thankfully (IMHO) it wasn’t the main thing in our discussion.
- there was talk about the Gospel being embodied, there was also talk on how we “perform” the Gospel, there was mention of the wider catergory of “witness” in relation to “evangellsm”
- one of us shared on how many sermons in the pulpit has little relevance to the week from Monday to Saturday. Or often being good at work is merely a means to hook others to Jesus by having a change to “evangelize”
- Someone mentioned I may not be able to find a job in a megachurch (and that was a compliment!) hehehe
- There’s lots more … I’m getting a little tired typing.

Overall, i felt it was a good meeting … and there were very encouraging affirmations from all quarters. The facilitator congratulated the research commission for their best behaviour (I wonder why?). As for me, I think those of us who so called represented “emergent malaysia” did well in honestly sharing our thoughts.

It was a nice date… there was laughter, some heightened excitement here and ther, some flatter moments where patience was required, there was a genuine effort to listen and understand, some good moments where thoughts and concerns connected, other times we flew by each other … after being in a variety of settings in my personal experience this was one of the more memorable ones I’ve been part of.

after that, a decent lunch … and some extra overflow of conversations (as usual) nice to catch up with old friends and new.

Nothing fancy … I think we might have some “dates” in future maybe in different forms and different ways.

as you can see we’re very much trying to get organized *grin*

Date: Saturday 26 November 2005
Time: 10am-12pm
Venue: 43 Meazzanine Floor SS2/64 47300 P.J
(It is in SS2. Same row as Salvation and Evangel. Just one floor up from the
England Optical outlet. )
For those who are not sure how to go call me at 013-3507246

Topic: Emerging Concerns & Possible Solutions in Malaysian Christianity
(our focus is to pay attention a little bit more on what’s happenign in our country socio-political-economic wise… and how Christians are responding at different levels – of course our focus will be back on the personal and local church level for starters)

This topic will be based on some reports from
- simple report on the recent CFM conference (Sivin)
- some interaction between some of us with the NECF Research commission (Kia Meng & Alwyn)

that would be at least 60minutes worth of stuff to be introduced to. and then we’ll have smaller group discussions. and have some practical ideas sharing that would take another 45minutes then eat!.

I love mash potatos .. I had potatos for lunch, potatos for dinner (but not mash lah!) in the Chinese style with pork! awesome!

we are talking about the Book of Habakkuk (for the text check Habakkuk 1 TNIV (Today’s New International Version)

Some interesting insights popping up … like (all from different ppl):
” … the book ends with a glimmer of hope. Hope. yea, that’s what comforts me. owh, and also for the fact that really, it is okay to question somethings.

… so in the light of all this. and Habakkuk.- he sees things he thinks are not right – all the injustice, he complains “Lord, don’t you see?” and then God says, “don’t worry, I have it all under control – in my own timing – don’t you worry. i have bigger plans” and then after that Habakkuk learns to accept God for Him. Not to try and think how God should be, but acknowledging God’s greatness, and his bigger plan. in practical ways -yea, what can we learn? maybe just not to judge so much? maybe to be more aware that God knows? “
(still on going)

Still got much to do … had a good time reflecting on Adult faith formation today …still more to go. thought a lot about my own formation.

again and again … we are confronted with the “pains” of the other ..

as well as some “joys”.

I’m very proud of those who organized and helped in this First Project Fireflies Camp!

Movable Theoblogical: AuthenticChurch Archives
“WE ARE CULTURAL ADDICTS AND WE CANNOT BREAK THIS ADDICTION ALONE” .. not strictly emergent but … I need to read these posts .. keeps important things in perspective!

something different thanks to Prodigal Kiwi(s) Blog

How Can We Sing the Lord’s Song in a Strange Land?
“There are two other main options for Christianity faced with the secularising, pluralising challenges of late modernity. These are deductive and reductive options. Deductive options tend to be the conservative ones, turning to tradition and scripture and away from today’s cultural agenda, while reductive options are the more liberal ones, trimming the content and expression of faith in fidelity to today’s culture”

The Emerging Church: Mature, Mystical and Militant
“Today’s forms of these deductive and reductive approaches are evident in the (equally) post-modern options of fundamentalism (everything is deduced from a certain reading of scripture) and thoroughgoing liberalism (everything is reduced to fit culturally-subservient needs and expectations of the moment). Beyond fundamentalism and liberalism, however, lies a third way that Berger called inductive, involving a return to the roots of religious conviction, reclaiming the ancient core of Christian tradition in critical conversation with present-day realities—restoring, re-invigorating, re-inventing.”

Liturgy: Secret Weapon of the Emerging Church
“If the Church’s aim is to establish a Christian world-view in the face of post-Christian culture, the resources provided by this universal cultural fact of ritual transformation and symbolic reinforcement should not be dismissed. Liturgy as a drama of world-making serves as a carrier of this ‘new creation’, where a congregation tells again the story of God’s universal purposes made concrete and personal in Jesus, liberating the worshipper and empowering an embodiment of that vision as the assembly departs ‘to love and serve the Lord’.”

Best Book on the Emerging Church
Let’s see which Malaysian bookstore is the fastest to bring this in … on your mark – get set – GO!

Facing Opposition: An Open Letter to Emergent Christians
It’s been a while since I got an hand written letter … I havent written an Open letter before … perhaps I should (on other matters of course!)