Since I’m in the Malaysian Theological Seminary now, I’m inspired by the excellent Seremban Omellete and throw in a few more links.
Thanks Charles Wear for this … I’m watching some now 🙂
Stackhouse to Carson on the Emerging Church: Leave Me Out of It
The amazing world of the internet allows for a quick clarification on a footnote … awesome. But, it’s more to it than a footnote. It’s how one is quoted.
DA Carson versus the Emerging Church
Someone asked me (or passed me news) about Dr. Carson’s seminar in Singapore recently. Frankly, I’ve moved on from this debate. I really do think I prefer to spend my time doing more constructive pursuits.
John MacArthur versus the Emerging Church
I’ve never been a fan of John MacArthur, and I suppose he’s a sincere man and desires to be faithful to what he believes to be right and true. But seriously, … I think I shall remain silent.
Intro to the Mosaic Stream of the Emerging Church
Now this is worth some serious engagement. 🙂
My Thoughts on the Emerging Church
Insightful …
“The truth is we don’t know what exactly the emerging church will become. There is a great effort to try to divide it up into categories. I suppose I understand that desire from the vantage point of good people who simply are trying to understand what is going on out there among Christians and they need to have it broken down for them.
The problem I see with the categories, however, is that they appear like a helpful tool but it’s just not that cut and dry. There are no teams yet. They may be forming but there are a lot people just getting into the game, or showing up at practice or just signing up to play.
The danger that I see is that people, particularly Americans love to quickly categorize people so they can either turn them into a celebrity or a demon. We really don’t want to read what they have written or take the time to get to know them. We simply want to know what category they fit in so we can pronounce our judgment if we disagree with them or subscribe to their podcast if we like what they said.”
The Open Secret of emergent Theology: Reflections from Austin emergence 2007 Panel on Theology
Why This Matters: A personal moment at the Austin emergence 2007 Panel on Theology
Wow … these are pretty long blog posts titles. Other links here –> Thoughts on the Emergence Austin Event
7 Loving Challenges for Emergent
Ouch … this can be a real trap. We need to watch out.
“Let’s avoid the trap of the “enlightened bourgeoisie.” These are the folks who meet at the bar and grill and drop 25 bucks per person on drinks while they talk about issues of justice. These are the people who only have other bourgeoisie friends but believe that they are on the side of migrant and the working class. Yes, yes, you can have money and follow Jesus. But you can’t have money, be disconnected from the “least of these,” and follow Jesus.”
Mark Driscoll’s Critique Gets Mixed Response
Personally, I think imported controversies are distracting. I’m posting this up just in case people ACTUALLY are following these kind of things over here. Lord have mercy.
The “We’re In, You’re Out” Mentality
After this you would want to read more, and there’s more to this quote …
“I believe one weakness in evangelicalism that the emerging church is responding to is evangelicalism’s excessively rationalist approach to truth and salvation that birthed a stubborn “we’re in/you’re out” mentality. There has been an impulse in evangelical fundamentalism towards (a) an intolerant judgmental exclusivism, (b) an arrogant, even violent, certainty about what we do know, and (c) a hyper-cognitive gospel that takes the mystery out of everything.”
“… the gospel is not about getting something, it is about participating in something—God’s work of reconciling the whole world to Himself. And yes, we do have a relationship with God which becomes personal but it is inseparable from His mission.”
Emerging + Missional = Emergissional
I’ve always seen both words in close relatedness even though they have their different nuances. Dan has an interesting comment:
“To my best understanding the emerging church and the missional church are very much the same. But when you talk about the “emerging church” there is also a stream of conversation which focuses more on pragmatic changes—like worship gathering and helping younger people connect with worship. That is part of it, but it is far more than just making changes in the worship gathering, it is a philosophical way of being a Christian and being churches sent into the world. Personally, I use the terms “emerging church” and “missional church” interchangeably. They are synonymous conversations. But not everyone sees them that way.”
The Future of the Emerging Church
I suddenly realized I haven’t been doing these emergent/emerging church links for a long time. And I’m intrigued by so much that has been written.
DA Carson versus the Emerging Church
Someone asked me (or passed me news) about Dr. Carson’s seminar in Singapore recently. Frankly, I’ve moved on from this debate. I really do think I prefer to spend my time doing more constructive pursuits.
John MacArthur versus the Emerging Church
I’ve never been a fan of John MacArthur, and I suppose he’s a sincere man and desires to be faithful to what he believes to be right and true. But seriously, … I think I shall remain silent.
AMEN!!!!!
Paul – you are speaking so “loudly” in bold? 🙂
Hmm….m concerned here. M not sure whether it’s the right way to shout AMEN as such. It’s either DA Carson’s and John McArthur is not constructive in their argument or the emergent gang has no time to bother to respond or they(the emergent) are lack of knowledge to response!! I’m no emergent either but being a fan of DA Carson in some way it’s worth listening to. But we should respond if they are wrong even they don’t listen. M juz “upset” for not bothering and remain silent attitude here!!
Chee Keat – thanks for expressing your concern. I think Bob Robinson has the more extensive comment on MacArthur. As for whether the “emergent gang” has responded, I think they have but perhaps not in the way their critics prefer. I’ve been following this from a distance for a pretty long time (i think since the beginning years around 2000), so please count it as I’m growing tired of rehashed arguments around themes like absoulute truth, relativism, the slippery slope etc. against some of the emergent related authors, I think Brian McLaren is the usual punching bag. I think maybe Tony Jones’ new book coming up might chart a new direction in this discussion.
For me I think silence can be a virtue, especially when I don’t see immediate ways forward on this matter. And more so because, in terms of priority in mission and theologizing I’ve chosen another path – more related to contextual, practical and missional modes of doing theology which to me at this point is critical for the Malaysian context.
Coming out from the more Charismatic flavor of our Christian journey, and probably exposed to a wide range of authors in the seminary, it’s just that I’ve not found Macarthur’s approach helpful (though I’m sure he’s got something to teach). As for D.A Carson, I’ve perhaps read one book he co-authored (which I thought was pretty good), and heard him speak once(which I thought was okay). So, it’s not about whether there’s any good in them, it’s simply I was never drawn to them. I know many have benefited from their ministry and listen to their take on many things. There is a sense that they seem to be seen as guardians of orthodoxy, that kind of thinking concerns me.
I am just plain old bothered by it. The responses has been there but it seems to me that many of these self-proclaimed guardians of orthodoxy choose not to hear them.
Hi .. the bold was not really intentional – I was experimenting with the tags … still nto very saavy 🙂 But the Amen and the exclamation points was to say that I agree wtih Sivin that this is the time to just step back and be silent.
Why? (and now I have just made myself a “hypocrite” by not keeping silent! lol!!) …
You know there will be no conversation or even a dialaogue at this stage – it’s too emotional(?) So a response will not be helpful and will just add fuel to the fire and many will get hurt and stumble. Best let the ones already in the centre of the issue do the responding (and we pray for wisdom and grace to be seen it it all)
Also I think it is a wise thing for some of us (like myself) to step back and admit that a man like DA Carson is way beyond my intellectual and academic level. It’s like a a small child with kindergarten education trying to cross wits with a university professor with mutliptle earned PhDs.
It’s not to say that this means the child is wrong and the prof is right BUT it is going to be almost impossible for the chld to rise to such a high intellectual level and challenge the thought processes of the prof.
But a child can get a hearing through other means …. via the purity and sincerity of heart. And who can change the heart? One for certain would be God’s Holy Spirit! And via someone like a loved or close friend, a personal crisis … etc
I am wary and weary of debates and confrontations. I like Ravi Z’s remindner of the wisdom of a couple of old Indian proverbs.
There are two ways to touch your nose (now you have to imagine touching youyr nsoe with your ahnd in the most direct and simplest way … and then putting your hand behind and around your neck to touch your nose)
To me – if the direct method doesn’t work, try another route – it may be a longer and more tedious and even ridiculous looking way but hey, it amy be radical enough to get the job done
2nd … If you cut someone’s nose off, it is no point giving him a rose to smell.
Point is … even if I am smart enough to point out DA Carson’s or John MacArthurs’ inconsistencies and show it clearly to the world, what good would it do me? I would not have won him over … I would have cut off his nose and so when I present my case to him (sweet smelling as it may be) he
will be in poistion to appreciate it).
Excuse the long post – my name adfter all is Paul … LONG LOL!!!(sorry could nto resist the lame pun ROTFL!)
Hi Sivin, thanks for the potpourri. I’m reading this in the unearthly of hours (after being internet starved for the weekend)
After reaching the 3rd link, especially that by Stackhouse, I can probably see why Brian McLaren had to sadly, disengage from Carson who has seriously misrepresented a lot of things “emergent”.
It saddens me, that there is a PhD bible scholar out there who is more interested in making his point, than being fair in this particular case.
Sorry, some folks in Malaysia may have invited him a number of times, but I am not one to worship him.
Sivin Kit,
Thanks for clarification. I understand if arguments that go around and not going anywhere, it can be tiring and pointless. So, it’s better to leave it as it is. I think my concerns is that it is bad attitude for us not contributing to the majority voices if a brother or sister in Christ is going to a wrong way or misunderstood in a wrong way. I have read McARthur books on “Charismatic chaos” which I felt it’s a very bad exegesis. His other books are quite alright but like what u said he tried hard to do the right thing, but the fact he stands on a dispensationalist ground from his “Charismatic chaos”, it’s a concern to me. Whreas DA Carson and his gospel coalition gang (thegospelcoalition.org) who are trying to be “guradians of orthodoxy” are worth while to be listening to unless my guess u don’t hold Scripture as “supreme authority” in all matters of faith and conduct, and prob hold Scripture as “an” authority instead. I have been following thru with DA Carson’s books and impressed with his exegetical work but yet still to find any faults. Anyway, juz wonder what are your concerns on “guardians of orthodoxy”(direct to Bob K as well). Looks like we may need a long conversation on this matter….ok..hope to meet u all to discuz on this one day!!
Paul Long,
THanks for ur Loong sharing which helps me to understand ur position. Again, m not sure whether it’s an excuse not to debate and confront even when we are “emotional” and stumble and hurt others. Isn’t proclaiming the truth of CHrist hurts? like confronting CHristians who’s dating a non Christian would definitely hurt!I think to me, if we can argue constructively and tactfully, we prob can lessen the hurts and stumbling on others. On DA Carson’s being an NT scholar, I think if we work hard and know our Scripture well, we still can discern whether the NT scholar is correct or not. D prob is i found in general, we don’t work hard enough on studying the bible. I was one of them until recently m tryig to work hard in studying bible and how to interpret properly. I even challenged myself to learn Greek and Hebrew on top of my Accounting work. I’m not threatened by his scholarship, I’m still reading his books and trying to find faults on them. Of course, before u understand where he’s coming from, u should know the methods he used for his interpretation from the bible. Normally, it’s not hard to trace his source of arguments. It juz it’s hard work on us to discern an NT scholar.
EJ,
After reading the Stackhouse, m still wondering why DA Carson did such a thing but I’m not a worshipper of DA Carson too. it juz he’s one of my theologian admirers. So, I learn overall he’s still human but there’s no excuse. I should read his books and his faults need to be pointed out even he does not listen. Btw, most truly I’m a worshipper of Jesus !!
Sivin,
Sorry to use your blog as a platform for this discussion.
Hi CK,
You said :
I think this is one of the issues I have a bone with. There is the assumption that if I have issues with some dearly held doctrines that I am perhaps guilty of not holding on to Scripture as authoritative.
My contention is not with the authority of Scripture. As a beneficiary of the Reformation, I hold on to the principle of Sola Scriptura and as a beneficiary of the Evangelical; both classical and contemporary; as well as the charismatic renewals, I consider Scripture to be my yardstick.
It is primarily with the hermeneutics and exegesis that my main contention lies. Over the years, I’ve been subject to a lot of different teachings, sometimes from the same text. I have learnt to appreciate most of what has been taught to me as well, especially over the recent years. I may not necessarily subscribe in whole to a particular interpretation of Scripture but I try to acknowledge the Truth that is present in it.
And yet it is this spirit that is currently being castigated as being heterodox; especially if one were to be unconvinced in whole by a particular set of hermeneutics, by some of the proponents of the Gospel Coalition. I voiced my concern in a previous post on my blog and so far it seems that my worst fears are founded.
It is precisely because of the such tendencies that I find myself very bothered by the guardians of orthodoxy – whether they come in the form of Reformed scholars like Carson or from the Emergent fold. Do we need to contend for the faith? Yes .. I believe we do. Do we need to go out of the way to pick a “fight” in the name of contending for the faith? That is something we ought to ponder a bit.
Bob,
O dear…..looks like we need to have a long chat on this – from what u understand “sola Scriptura” to what sort of exegesis and hermeneutics do u use to in wat ways gospel coalitions piking up a “fight”? As for now, thanks for your sharing to help me roughly know where u stand and prob will pik up to probe further in ur blog as issues arise. thanks once again and thanks, sivin kit for allowing me to use this platform!!
Paul – thanks for your long comment. 🙂 nice to have a lively discussion going on in my usually pretty quiet blog. For me, what’s crucial for us is the healthy confidence we can have to listen to whatever is presented either by someone like Carson or McLaren and see how that relates to some of our struggles here. I’m not sure whether I’m smart enough academically to debate with someone like Dr. Carson but that doesn’t mean I cannot question the kind of thinking which he uses to set boundaries on the debate. I’m less a detail person so when it comes to details i confess my inadequacies, I hope to look at the criticism from a pastoral, missional and practical point of view (which includes an equally theological bent as well when it’s done properly).
CK – thanks again for keeping the conversation going. My views on Scripture can be pieced a little from here –> Reformation 1: Scripture alone. I submit this for your reflection. In short, no matter how we discuss “Sola Scriptura”, I believe we need to keep it close to the ongoing illumination of the Spirit and assumed inspiration of the Spirit in the texts we engage in and the community as well as contexts we are in now. I also think we need to unpack “all matters of faith and conduct” (which I’d rephrase based on our confessions in this way, i.e. “We acknowledge the Holy Scriptures as the norm of the faith and life of the church. The Holy Scriptures are the divinely inspired record of Gods redemptive act in Christ, for which the Old Testament prepared the way and which the New Testament proclaims. In the continuation of this proclamation in the Church, God still speaks through the Holy Scriptures and realizes His redemptive purpose generation after generation.” (refer to LUTHERAN CONFESSION OF FAITH. But for me there is the priority of the gospel and further the priority of Christ in my interpretive/hermenutical lens). The authority of Scripture is not in question for me here, it’s the authorities we ascribe to individuals or even coalitions which concerns me (I do not think by questioning their approach (e.g. DA Carson) I am not holding on to Scriptural primacy and authority.) But then again, each of us need to watch our blind spots.
EJ – I worship Brian McLaren, and offer sacrifices to him. he is my idol. …. you know I’m kidding right? 😛 Ok .. he’s a friend, and that’s cool! 🙂 Alan Roxburgh accurately articulates how I feel about Brian’s writings here. Brian indeed is more like a poet for our times!
Bob K – always nice to get your energy input here. Did you miss my sermon on Scripture Alone? …. MP3s will be available. In relation to CK’s comment for you, I basically refuse to enter this debate based on frameworks set by others whose contexts is vastly different from ours here in Malaysia. And what I believe we need to grow up to do is to be in touch while maintaining some distance and put energy working on our own ways of appropriating Scripture, and constructing our theology. But you have heard me say that a million times. I’m working on it … I really am, I’m sure many others are too .. I hope so!