Sivin Kit's Garden

Paradox ~ Lent day 4

~ both pictures from Spencer Burke

My heart desires to be in state of the soothing rose picture. The reality is often I'm led back into the dry cracked wilderness picture.

"The Lord with you ... and also with you ..."

Random Thoughts on New Notebook

I've always been slower when it comes to technology, but I've been thankfully quick to adapt and learn.

how I wish we could watch the movie of the year in Malaysia... I guess we'll have to drive down to Singapore (if it releases there)

visited the new MPH at 1 Utama shopping mall last night and was impressed by the selections in the Bible reference and theology shelves! Not bad for a secular book store formerly known as Methodist Publishing House (according to reliable sources)

thoroughly enjoying what BLC members put up on their blogs, David Berry has been extremely prolific with 4 new entries today.

had a fast-moving time with two "good" men, I think it was quite a good disorganized time of listening and talking. Looking forward to see what might happen ...

got a better grasp of FREEMIND and mindmapped my sermon preparation, council meeting tommorrow, and loads of other stuff, etc. The new "cloud" function is really nice and colourful, the way I like it.

wife calling ... son sleeping ...

Temptation of Christ

"When the devil had finished every temptation, he left him until an opportune time." ~ Luke 4:13 (NASB, emphasis mine)

Frustration Reliever

Try throwing rocks at boys. I know it's LENT, and I need some extra patience. But, this is a lighthearted game that allows me to laugh at myself when I take myself too seriously (thanks James Tan).

10 Tips on writing the Living Web

Jump in here *spash!*

Thanks Jason Clark who got this from Jordon Cooper.

Why the Evangelical Church Needs the Liberal Church

In a discussion about some "touchy" matters between our American guests and Malaysian pastors over lunch. There's a tendency in us to "over-rate" the value of our "conservatism" in Asia (most of us here would be considered evangelicals, pentecostal or charismatic - for lack of better terms for now ... call yourself a "liberal" would be ministry suicide!) and "underestimate" the separatist-judgemental-exclusive attitude in the way we operate. Richard J. Mouw who is president of Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California has something to say that's worth listening here.

16 Hard Truths

Tom Peter's (refered to as ... the father of the post-modern corporation ... business' best friend and worst nightmare) is coming to Malaysia on 3 March. For RM2995 you get to hear him on "I got (some of) it really wrong". Would his "Off-shoring" Manifesto/Rant get closer to reality? Decide for yourself.

"Off-shoring" Manifesto/Rant: Sixteen Hard Truths

TomObservation 02/21/2004

1. "Off-shoring" will continue; the tide cannot be reversed.

2. Service jobs are a bigger issue than manufacturing jobs, by an order of magnitude.

3. The automation of business processes is as big a phenomenon in job shrinkage as off-shoring.

4. We are in the middle of a once every hundred years' (or so) productivity burst -- which is good for us ... in the long haul.

5. Job churn is normal and necessary: The more the better ... in the long haul.

6. Americans' "unearned wage advantage" (Born in the U.S.A.) could be erased ... permanently.

7. The wholesale, increasingly upscale entry of 2.5 billion people (China, India) into the global economy at an accelerating rate is virtually unfathomable. Unfathomable = Unpredictable, exceptional challenges, amazing opportunities.

8. Free trade works. Period. It makes the world a safer place ... in the long haul. The process is not pretty at times. (Sometimes long times.) Those who dutifully followed yesterday's rules yet are displaced must be helped when the "rules change." Such help must not be in perpetuity -- it demands a sunset date.

9. Big Companies are off-shoring/automating almost exclusively in pursuit of efficiency and shareholder value enhancement. (This is not new or news.)

10. Big companies do not create jobs, and historically have not created jobs. Big companies are not "built to last;" they almost inexorably are "built to decline."

11. Job creation is entrepreneurially led, especially by the small fraction of "start-ups" that become growth companies (Microsoft, Amgen, FedEx et al.); hence entrepreneurial incentives including low capital-gains taxes and high R&D supports are a top priority.

12. Primary and secondary education must be reformed, in particular to underscore creativity and innovation -- the mainstays of high-value added products and services. Children should be nurtured on risk-taking, with a low expectation of corporate cosseting.

13. Future success rests upon ... Excellence in Innovation. Hence, among other things, research universities must be vigorously supported.

14. National/global protection of intellectual capital-property is imperative.

15. Broadband EVERYWHERE is a National Priority ... akin to the priority placed on combating Global Terrorism.

16. All economic progression is a matter of moving up the "value-added chain." (This is not "management speak": Think farm to factory to R&D lab.) The good news: Technology change is so vigorous for the foreseeable future that those who can "seize the moment" have lots of room to play.

17. Worker benefits (health care, re-training credits, pensions) should be portable, to induce rather than impede labor mobility.

18. Workers have the ultimate stake. And thus the ultimate personal responsibility. (Think: Emerson, self-reliance.) "Workers"/we/all must "re-imagine" ourselves -- take the initiative to create useful global skills, not imagine that large employers or powerful nations will protect us from the current (and future!) labor market upheavals.

Quotes worth noting/quoting:

"Fourteen Million Service Jobs Are in Danger of Being Shipped Overseas." (UCal study)

"One Singaporean worker costs as much as three in Malaysia, eight in Thailand, thirteen in China, eighteen in India." (Straits Times)

"The proper role of a healthily functioning economy is to destroy jobs and put labor to use elsewhere. Despite this truth, layoffs and firings will always sting, as if the invisible hand of enterprise has slapped workers in the face." (Joseph Schumpeter)

"WHAT ARE PEOPLE GOING TO DO WITH THEMSELVES?"(Fortune)

"THERE IS NO JOB THAT IS AMERICA'S GOD-GIVEN RIGHT ANYMORE." (Carly Fiorina, CEO, HP)

"The world has arrived at a rare strategic inflection point where nearly half its population -- living in China, India, Russia -- have been integrated into the global market economy, many of them highly educated workers, who can do just about any job in the world. We're talking about three billion people." (Craig Barrett, CEO, Intel)

"The notion that God intended Americans to be permanently wealthier than the rest of the world, that gets less and less likely as time goes on." (Robert Solow, Nobel Laureate in Economics)

"The new organization of society implied by the triumph of individual autonomy and the true equalization of opportunity based upon merit will lead to very great rewards for merit and great individual autonomy. This will leave individuals far more responsible for themselves that they have been accustomed to being during the industrial period. It will also reduce the unearned advantage in living standards that has been enjoyed by residents of advanced industrial societies throughout the twentieth century." (Governor, Bank of England)

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LENT - good sequel

From Maggi Dawn
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LENT, SHROVE TUESDAY, ASH WEDNESDAY
I'm interested to notice that a lot of people in this blogvillage don't know what the significance of Shrove tuesday and Ash Wednesday is. When I was a child (several hundred years ago now) this stuff was taught at Sunday School (but nobody goes there any more) at Church (but we do alternative themed services now) and in school (but we're too PC to teach relgion properly). So for all those of you who read this, don't know, and would like to, read on:

Lent is the 6-week period before Easter when the Church is in a period of fasting - i.e. reducing ones consumption of food and other comestibles to a simple level. Meat would usually be off the menu, and sweet things. (This is the same reason why Catholics traditionally eat fish on a Friday, as friday is always a Fast, so no meat). There are occasional feast days within Lent - many Churches pause their fast ona Sunday, for instance. But traditionally you would not get married during Lent. The point of Lent is not so much to give things up, but actively to return to faithfulness to Christ. I must say, though, that in a society increasingly in failing health through obesity and heart disease, a return to the pattern of fasting and feasting would be no bad thing, for our physical as well as our spiritual health.

Shrove Tuesday is the last day before Lent; and with the fast about to begin, people would use up all their remaining rich foods - eggs and fat to make the pancakes, which were then eaten with any leftover meat or sugar. Not so much a "last treat", more of an economic using up of the leftovers. Shrove is a word - from Middle English (? from memory) - same root as Shrive or shriven, referring to absolution or pronouncing of forgiveness. (UPDATE: I checked my facts with a Medievalist at lunchtime: this is right! Phew)

Ash Wednesday is the first day of Lent, and during the communion Ashes, mixed with holy oil, are pressed onto the foreheads of the communicants. The Ashes (made by burning Palm Crosses from Palm Sunday the previous year) represent death. The prayer or 'motto' of the day is this: "Remember that you are but dust: from dust you came, and to dust you shall return. Turn from sin and be faithful to Christ. "

Happy Lent, everyone. I'm off to collect our Ashes now.
# posted by maggi @ 8:26 AM
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LENT

I was asked about Lent tonight ... I don't think my answer was very comprehensive. This one is better, click here. Thanks to Steve Gee.

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So we also retain Lent to this day, because we see it as a salutary outward discipline that gives Christians a wonderful opportunity for spiritual renewal, It’s a time to come face to face with whatever sin may be hindering our walk with Christ. But most profoundly, it’s a time where we come face to face with the Gospel of Jesus which forgives and removes that sin and gives us the power to live anew…
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Mainstream no longer?

I just thought about a fun conversation I had with a former pastor and now turned writer (plus "other stuff" I think). It was strange because we haven't really seriously sat down and talked before. all our personal conversations have been on the phone and here and there through email and SMS. I'm really looking forward to spend sometime with him this week (if possible). One remark struck me then, when he commented that how he's no longer in the mainstream and how there was a freedom to "see" things differently, and "say" different things (ok ... that's how I perceived his statement). Tonight as I write here after a long day, and some "unexpected" interactions I feel I'mean really feel I'm not in the mainstream as well ... what is in the mind of some Christians I meet baffles me, what are their priorities trouble me, what is the interest of their conversations bore me, the low level of trust (a kind of automatic suspicion) hurts me, the lack of direction and clarity and focus makes me wonder in l sorts of directions ... (I'm not talking about those who are stuggling .. but those who are so called "mainstream" strong ones or even leaders)

Mother and Child

This is a beautiful picture (or icon?) from Spencer Burke, I'm going to carry it in my head and heart as I begin my Lenten journey. After reading his post, I thought why don't I carry one picture (or icon?) with me each day.

Clean ...

Delightful entry from James Tan (our very own Rock Intellectual Mystic) .... (here's the whole post)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Eyes that are wide open can find beauty in anything, anywhere.

Behold the traditional hand wash of the Chinese restaurants. Made of Chinese tea and a slice of lime. You simply dip your fingers in, squeeze the lime, and rub your fingers. The oil will disappear, leaving behind clean, nice-smelling fingers.

What I find more appealing than the cleaning ability is that the wash is communal. We don't get personal bowls. We all share one. We all put our dirty fingers in. We all pull our clean fingers out. For some reason, I find that appealing. We become equals. No one is too dirty to share the bowl.

If only we lived life like how we share the lime tea wash...

10 Rules of Writing

Time to sharpen my writing after reading this ... WRITERS ON WRITING; Easy on the Adverbs, Exclamation Points and Especially Hooptedoodle Here's my scissored version (for lazy people):

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1. Never open a book with weather.

Or, if proper usage gets in the way, it may have to go.
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Wounds & Scars

This blog The Wound Has Healed, but the Scar Still Hurts drew me back to important realities I can not and must not ignore.

On "The Art of Leadership"

"The art of leadership is keeping the tension between too little and too much stress." -Richard Leider , Founding Partner, Inventure Group via First Impression

On "Intellect" & "Personality"

'We should take care not to make the intellect our god; - it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality.' ~ Albert Einstein via Joi Ito

>

Open Office

I like the open source philosophy. So I guess, I'll downloading Open Office to try it out. I know my friend Wolfgang uses it and so far so good.

Whale Rider

When I found out that the Midvalley cineplex was going to show Whale Rider I was determined to watch it. We did and we came home tonight "nourished". May Chin & I found it to be not only a movie that touches that whcih relates to our humanity, it is also rich with layers of culture, tension between past & future and of course a wonderful piece of story telling.

Amongst the many things that struck me, one is worth mentioning immediately. I realized that even though the Moari culture and the New Zealand context at first seems so distant from us here in Malaysia. Somehow the story still touched me at a most profoundly deep level - e.g. the relationships in the story, the struggles they faced, the whole quest for some way to move forward as well as preserve the past, etc. I was simply encouraged that the most local & authentic sharing of one's journey can connnect across boundaries and become bridge not only for me to understand the one sharing but as one listening I'm drawn to understand myself better.

Here's a study guide from Damaris for those who wanna explore deeper.

Reforming Theology

If the Reformed tradition is going the direction John Franke charts in this excellent article Reforming Theology, I think there's much we can talk about and multiple possibilities to move forward together rather than just on our own!

Looking forward to read another article by Franke on God hidden & Wholly Revealed: Karl Barth, postmodernity, and evangelical theology before our LiFE Group afterwards at 4.30pm.

mBlog

Thanks to mBlog ... a number of BLC bloggers have emerged from their slumber and plunged in to swim with the rest of us! The pool is big enough and the water is pretty cool (or warm depending on your preferences), join us if you're still enjoying your cocktail under the umbrella somewhere!

DJ with Brian McLaren

Here is An Interview with Brian McLaren facilitated by DJ Chuang

BLC Blogger no. 5

The Father's House Blog Pool has more people swimming James Tan dips in once awhile (I heard he might be changing his swimming trunks soon), Moh Foong is trying to get some new swimming aids, David Berry has been diving in and out, and now ... the ever lovable John Cheah putting his feet into the water. Anyway, have fun "blogging", "reading" and "learning" together ... I'm so excited (you are free to interpret the images with your imagination)!

Solitude

The 1996 Sivin

Picked up and read what I wrote in the seminary (S.T.M) graduation magazine in 1996, entitled "Recapturing God's Gifts in Room No.7" ( Download file) and thought about the Luther quote I used as well for my graduation picture. Suddenly realized or at least reaffirmed many of crucial values deep within me formed during that time continues on today.

(I used a picture I took in China for the article ...)

Here are two paragraphs from the article:
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... Reading theology has not been a bore at all. On the contrary, my teachers helped me broaden my horizons inside and outside the classroom walls. I've enjoyed countless conversations and small talks that have made what seemed like a maze to many, become meaningful to me. Thanks for waking up a sleepy mind. I've found Theologian Clark Pinnock's words helpful as I thought about my learning here. He said:

"Opening the mind is not an end in itself. The idea of opening the mind, like opening the mouth, is to close it again on something solid."

.... Looking into my own heart, I realize that I've change. Once I thought the whole S.T.M. experience was just to be "trained and equipped for the ministry". I was wrong. There's much more that meets the eye if one chooses to take the risk. Sometimes, it's better not to know everything exactly in advance. Nevertheless one thing is certain - to know that I'm loved and accepted by my loving Father. He guides gently and firmly the one who embarks on the journey of transformation in heart, mind, spirit and ultimately life. Pain and pleasure becomes interwoven in this package deal but I'm confident that it will be rewarding when one looks back in the end. Well, I'm not at the end yet! I'm merely at the opening chapters of the story. God's gifts so far have been overwhelming!"
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Culture Cartoon

Via Jordon Cooper

Is emerging only Western?

Find out what my new found friend or he found me DJ Chuang says, click here ...

Some thoughts from Emergent Village's Forum under "people of color & the emerging church", click here ...

BLC Bloggers

wow! it's so exciting to know others from Bangsar Lutheran Church have started blogging ... I admit I get excited easily. Drum roll please .... *rum* Rum * RUM* (sound effects!). In troducing ...

All the way from Australia but stranded in Malaysia (just kidding) and flying all over the place --> David Berry's DB on DB

clap! clap! clap .... times 50!

Another one affectionately know as Assistant to Pastor (A2P) and also IRON Chef extraordinaire of our community as well as our church website designer ---> Moh Foong's Journey Woman

clap! clap! clap! ... times 50!

Who's next?

Emergence

A journal of Complexity Issues in Organizations & Management click here

Church Planting Lessons

Darren from Melbourne has been so kind to share what he's learnt on Church Planting. Here it is 6 parts with 10 lessons (with all the links and stuff) or just read my cut and paste together version below.

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Rich in a recent email wrote 'I would REALLY like to get your insights some time about starting and maintaining a home church. For example, what resources have you found to be particularly useful?'

I ended up writing quite a long email back to Rich with 10 'lessons' I've learnt over the last 12 months of starting the Livingroom. I found thinking through the process quite helpful, so thought I'd share what I wrote (with a few extra reflections) in a series here over the next week or so. Here is 'lesson' number 1 on DNA.

Hi Rich, I'm not sure I'm really overly qualified to answer the question as we're only 11 months in and I guess the jury is still out on what we are doing and how sustainable it will be. I like to think that we'll survive and even thrive this year, but you never know. What we're doing is pretty fragile.
My 'insights' are pretty random and chaotic at the moment - but let me share some of what comes to mind.

1. DNA - Getting some sort of DNA/Core Values etc together has been really important for us. I would recommend that any group starting out take their time on working through this stuff as it is foundational. I've seen a number of new churches fall over because this was not done - it was assumed that everyone was on the same page, but when the time came to make important decisions there was a whole heap of different expectations on what the group existed for. For us this process centred around story telling - I think you will find descriptions of some of the process on the blog back in March sometime (here is one exercise we did using Timelines).

2. Mission needs to be central. - Too many churches (and individuals) have the attitude of having to have the worship, constitution, structure, preaching, buildings etc worked out before they do mission. In this sense they want to get their ecclesiology worked out before they work out their missiology. I believe this is the wrong way around. Ecclesiology should emerge out of missiology. This is the way I see it happening in Acts. The early church didn't really have much worked out when it came to how they organized themselves when the Holy Spirit got them into Mission. As you do mission you begin to see what the church should look like. As you begin to interact with your wider community you begin to see what shape worship might take etc.

3. Read 'The Shaping of Things to Come' - by Alan Hirsch and Michael Frost. It is the best thing I've read written about missional church. Also I would recommend Ignition for any group starting out as a new group. It will give you a language to talk about Mission and help people to challenge some of their paradigms of church/mission. We ran it as our main meeting - I would suggest either running it as a separate meeting or to break it up a little with other stuff if you're just starting out as it goes for 3 months and you might need to be also working on other things. I know of a number of groups who started with Ignition and ended up planting churches - its a great starting point that will give your group a great paradigm and language for mission.

4. Multiplication rather than Addition. So far this is only theory for us - we are yet to test it but I have seen other groups take the principles of multiplication and really have an impact. The principle is simple, rather than growing one large group by adding people to it one by one - start multiple new groups. When the initial group grows to around 12-15 (this is the number I'm thinking about for us - what number this is is up to each group and probably will depend on a number of factors) start to plan to start another group. I've seen this principle lived out in a couple of circumstances and the growth has been quite amazing. Neil Cole's organization in the US has started around 400 communities in 5 years this way. If you put multiplication into the DNA of groups at the beginning their growth can be quite virus like. (I've written previously on the power of Multiplication here.

5. Simplicity - Replica-table (is that a word?) - in order for a virus to spread - the organism has to be pretty simple and easy to replicate in a variety of different cultures. By replicate I'm not talking about cloning but rather taking the DNA and allowing something new to emerge elsewhere.

For us - our DNA (our 3 Core Journeys) is pretty basic, but has the scope to express itself quite differently in different groups of people. For instance if our next cluster/community is birthed among café goers it will express itself quite differently to if we started a cluster among artists, or families meeting in homes etc. We've tried to keep things as simple as we can - not only in DNA but in gatherings etc. Renovare is also a great tool that helps with this - again it can be run in a variety of different groups very effectively effectively.

6. Incarnation - I've already hinted in the last point that we're interested in different cultural groups. This is not because we want to keep people separate from each other (I hope that the different clusters that emerge our of Living Room will meet together regularly and be involved in a variety of activities in partnership) but because our approach to mission and church is incarnational.
Christ gave us a model for mission - he came and made himself a part of humanity - in particularly a culture within the human race. He learnt the language of that culture and operated from within the rhythms of it. This is an approach I believe we can take as we look at the different cultural groups in our midst. For us this is quite accentuated as I live in a very multicultural city with many ethnic and sub cultural groups. Mission (and then church) will look different in each of these groups as it takes seriously the culture. In the same way that we respect and work within the culture in overseas contexts when we do mission (these days) we should also respect and work within the subcultures we move in here in Melbourne.

Instead of converting people and dragging them from their host culture back into the church (where they will become like us) - the Incarnational approach is to GO into the world and make disciples there.

7. Sending vs Attractional approach - Central in the idea of incarnation is 'going'. Churches often take a very 'attractional' approach to mission. They say things like - 'if we just tweak what we do or look like more people will come'. If the band plays a different style music, if the car park is bigger, if the foyer is a warmer color, if our preaching is better - people will come.

I'm not sure how biblical this is. Christ said - GO into all the world and make disciples where you find them. Of course the 'attractional' models do 'work' with a certain percentage of the population - but I think in Australia this percentage is shrinking. I'm excited that more and more churches are gathering 'in the world' rather than hoping that the world will come to them.

8. Participation is key. This is something I have learnt but also something we at Living Room can work more on. Church has been too passive in most settings for too long. I don't see the call of Jesus as being passive at all. All members of Livingroom participate in what we do almost every week. This happens best in the meal we eat in that everyone is responsible to bring something to the table whether it be a main dish, bread, wine, sweets or fruit. Even new people are asked to bring something on their first or second week. Participation can and should extend beyond this to the gatherings themselves. Worship, learning, prayer etc can all be very participatory. Even very reflective meditative exercises can become a group process with the right debriefing.

9. Community - Shared life. Read Acts 2 and you get a picture of a dynamic community of people who are very involved in each others lives. Community extends beyond a cup of coffee after a service or a 'sharing time' at the end of a bible study. It includes these things, but I think we need to be striving to really know each other. To go around the group and say one thing that happened to us this week seems a rather empty expression of community - shouldn't we already be aware of what is going on in others lives because we've been connecting with them and sharing life already? This is a challenging one for us - we live in a culture that is very individualistic, to break the patterns takes intentionality.

10. Have fun - Ok, this might not be the most technical lesson or one you'll find in too many books - but if the process isn't life giving and enjoyable people are not going to want to be a part of it. Let your creativity run rampant. Try new things, keep them surprising and unpredictable (Jesus did). Eat lots of good food, drink some good wine, enter into the celebrations of your culture, watch movies together go on trips as a group, laugh lots and enjoy one another's company. Don't be too serious - life's too short.
Well those are the 10 things that came to mind when Rich asked me for my 'insights' - by no means are they exhaustive - some of it is tested and other parts are works in progress.

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Creating new churches

Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, told the synod: "We can say that already new kinds of church are appearing ... this is not an attempt to subvert the parochial system but to ask what are those questions which the system now is not answering."Leaving Munster on Synod backs cafe church

I like that ... to ask what are those questions which the system now is not answering. After one denominational education committee meeting in the afternoon, then another district meeting in the evening that's a total of about 5 hours worth of time and a load of random "bubbles" just because I'm hanging around the head office. I'm asking more and more questions ... and this morning my wife (whom I courted for 10 years!) May Chin asked me, "Why do you read so much ... what drives you to always read somthing?" ... I replied, "Because I'm looking for answers." (because more and more questions are popping all over the place and I need some sanity!)

the new face of global christianity

This self described "California boy in Paris, following Jesus everywhere." has been getting my attention with thoughts like this from his entry on the new face of global Christianity:

"I do think the emerging "post-modern" church and the emerging non-western missionary movement have something to learn from each other. I believe we are drawn to the word "emerging” because we are all trying to wrap our minds around fundamental changes and their impact on basic assumptions. We just don't see clearly yet. A learning posture, humility and the ability to listen to others who are very different from ourselves are the qualities we need in order to move forward."

Signposts on Liquid Chuch

I've been waiting for his concluding remarks and then read the rest of what he's written in relation to Peter Ward's book Liquid Church. Anyway, here's the closing remarks:

"There is a boldness in Ward’s vision that intrigues and fascinates me. I find myself wanting to run with this creative view of the church’s future. Yet, I find he wants to correct the pendulum swing too much. Solid church has had an overemphasis on the Sunday morning gathering. Yet, that does not mean that the idea of the faith community gathering together is wrong, or ineffective or counter to following Jesus.

Our churches need to become less institutionalised and rigid. We need to explore models that don’t just tinker with the same formula but attempt to rethink the whole DNA of what it means to be the ecclesial faith community. Ward’s vision doesn’t offer an entire solution, and it is not perfect in its expression, but it does challenge our processes and ideas of church, in order that we can express our mission in new ways and forms."

For the rest of it .. I've taken the liberty to post it below (no comments from me - I didn't bold letter the whole thing so it's easier to read):

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Liquid Church - Reservation on the role of gatherings

I have been reading Liquid Church by Pete Ward. Great book - innovative, bold and provocative. Over the next few days, I thought I would share some of my reactions both positive and negative. I would love to hear your thoughts on each one. Here is my first one and it has to do with a reservation I have about the role of the gathering in Ward's vision.

Gatherings
In his critique of solid church, Ward has, in my opinion, an unhealthy focus on the gathering. He is right in his critique. Solid Church has become obsessed with attracting people to a certain event at a certain time and we have seemed to have lost the sense of movement (fluidity) and cause that dominated the teachings of Jesus and characterised the early Christians. However, I cannot agree that the logical conclusion is to discard the value of the gathering.

At Northern Community, we have emphasised an increasingly fluid church. Our newer and smaller congregations offer more fluid possibilities than our traditional Sunday morning congregation. They can easily change time, place and style from week to week. Sometimes some of our congregations will join together for a special event or decide to shut down for the holiday time. The smaller nature of our emerging church congregations make this possible in a way that is not viable for our larger Sunday morning congregation. Yet, despite this fluidity of time, place and style, and even frequency the gathering time is an integral part of our structures. The time of gathering in whatever form that it might take, is seen to be, and is, an important way to express our spirituality and community.

Nevertheless, I am challenged that my insistence on the value of the gathering may represent my own reliance on a particular paradigm of church. Maybe Ward is right, and I just don't "get it". Am I so much influenced by the gathering paradigm that I cannot see any other way?

One aspect that I have found personally challenging and even jarring is whether I place too much pressure and expectation on people to attend our congregations? Have I begun to rate everything that we do at Northern through the eyes of "getting someone to the gathering"? There is no doubt that ministers and leaders feel the pressure of "results". I suspect, ironically this is felt more in smaller emerging church congregations.

Perhaps attendance could also be considered fluidly. Particularly in Protestant traditions, Church attendance is required to be regular. If you are to be seen to be a loyal, and valuable member of the community you must be coming weekly. Why? Is this something that we need to question - particularly in these modern times of fast pace life, different options and the pressures of work and family. Yet, I still find myself reacting to this concept while thinking that the community of faith misses out on something when people don't commit to each other on a regular basis.

Liquid Church - Unity

Liquid Church emphasises fluidity and flexibility. It has a vision for multiple connecting points rather than a regular central cell structure. So, how will unity and identity be expressed in liquid church? Ironically, maybe the mega Church with its diverse offering of services can assist in this. Larger Churches cannot express their unity and identity through worshiping in the same place at the same time. And so other ways are sought.

Our own journey at Northern Community has seen a development of multiple congregations. This has meant that we have needed to tackle this issue of unity and identification. Some of the ways we have explored are; shared vision, core values, spiritual disciplines, and events that encourage all congregations to come together. Perhaps Liquid Church could, in practice, utilize the same unifying methods.

Liquid Church - Compartmentalising Church

Solid Church has built distinct compartments for worship, mission and other networks and it is this that I believe is the key issue. If our understanding of conversion is one of a line being crossed at a certain point in time then our church structures will be formed by this understanding. Journeys of faith have been cast as a black/white conversion - you are in or you are out. Solid church has then developed key distinctions between what is a worship event and what is not. The separation between the secular and the sacred have become clear.

But, what if we took these glasses off and replaced them with ones that saw conversion as more of journey. These glasses would contain a view in which people are seen as sometimes moving forward, sometimes backward and sometimes sideward. Liquid church allows for a more subtle assessment which does not marginalise those that do not see themselves as either clearly "Christian" or clearly "non-Christian". It allows people to connect with God and each other in their own way and at their own pace. This has profound consequences for mission. No longer is the goal to "get" people to a Sunday worship event but rather the goal is to make disciples.

Liquid Church - Community vs event mentality

I find it ironic that despite Ward’s assertion that liquid church should not focus on gatherings, it seems to me, that when he moves into describing the practical nature of liquid church there is an emphasis on events. It is true that the events proposed are substantially different to having the worshiping congregation as central. Events such as a labyrinth worship experience or a particular worship experience that people can experience in their own time and in their own space are ones that people can pick and choose depending on their taste and schedules.

Yet, I struggle with the lack of community that I perceive these examples offer. Is the community expressed between people sharing each other’s lives over extended periods of time to be shunned completely? Is there no place for people of faith to sojourn together?

Liquid Church - Plasma Church

I am attracted to the flexibility of Ward's Liquid Church. His vision is one that is motivated by mission in a post-modern culture. It is not attempting to defend church structures but rather seeks to place people at the centre of the church. We often hear the words that 'the Church is the people' and yet our actions and emphasis betray our true ecclesiology.

At Northern we have attempted with our smaller and newer models of congregations to retain a flexibility that is not sustainable in larger gathering or solid church. We are certainly not the fulfilment of what Ward portrays. We are as someone said to me, more like plasma church - a mix of the solid and the liquid. Perhaps I am not as radical as I would like to think of myself because I am very comfortable with the mix and uncomfortable with the concept of letting go of all elements of solid church.

Liquid Church - Who will pay the bills?

Steve Taylor writes: 'On a practical level, it needs to be asked who will fund Ward's dream of a liquid church' . If there is not a committed group gathering frequently, who will become committed enough to fund his dream? Ward likely envisages that his vision will require less funding than solid church. I think this is true, however I begin to wonder about the long term sustainability of the mission and ministry of liquid church.

I can understand that the funding of the individual events will be catered for by a user-pays mentality. I can also understand that if you remove paid clergy, and buildings you obviously remove many of the costs associated with the modern church. But, I was challenged about how this peer-to-peer leadership of individual events can ensure that entirety of a community's needs are met. Visiting the aged, the sick and the infirm are some of the things that came to mind as functions that require funding. But, this is where Ward's vision has been able to step outside the traditional paradigm. It is possible that a group of people would form to meet this need. Perhaps my reaction stems from my own need as a leader to ensure that this type of ministry happens.

Liquid Church - selling solid church short

In his desire to critique solid church I believe that Ward focuses on the gathering component of solid church too much. Solid church has always had elements of the fluidity that Ward desires. In fact, there are many gatherings associated with solid church which I and others would continue to see as valuable. Networks of small groups, youth clubs and sporting clubs are common examples of this.

It is a matter of emphasis that is the distinct difference. What solid church fails to do is give the same status to these ventures as the Sunday gathering and this is the real challenge to solid church. What would it mean for larger churches to begin to see some of their groups within the existing structures as “Church”? Larger churches offer a diverse range of seminars and events that fit within Ward’s vision of the commodification of spirituality. In fact, the larger church supermarket mentality has often been criticised for being too consumeristic.

Liquid Church - De-emphasising of a particular emphasis of faith

I like the way Ward’s vision is big enough to encompass the diversity of faith expressions. Solid church has a tendency to emphasise a particular style of worship at the cost of being welcoming and encouraging of the diversity of the ways people connect with God and each other. This one-size fits all mentality needs to be challenged. Many of the ‘newer’ approaches to worship in solid church have not been more than fiddling with the same formula. We take the formula of singing, sitting in rows and a sermon and we tweak. The last twenty or so years have seen such tweaks as modern music, singers urging us on from the front and multimedia presentations in our inputs. But, while it may seem radically different to more traditional approaches to worship, I question if we really have re-thought how church will connect with people. I respect Ward’s attempt to do exactly this.

Liquid Church - Escape from structure and processes

The idea that people can participate in the network of liquid church and be insulated from church politics is very attractive. This is not one size fits all, but an attempt to provide choice and customisation at every level of the church experience. Smaller solid church experiences (emerging church included!) are often quite intimidating for the newcomer. Larger churches have an advantage where people can sit relatively anonymously for a time. Both large and small solid church expressions can learn from this element of liquid church and create events that allow people to connect in briefly at their own pace and in their own style.

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Time to Forget ... & to Concentrate ...

got this quote via Maggi Dawn:

"12 years ago, Tom Wright wrote,
"It is time to forget evangelicalism and concentrate on the gospel; to forget catholicism and concentrate on the church and its mission; to forget liberalism and concentrate on clear thinking; to forget the charismatic movement and invoke the Spirit of the living God " New Tasks for a Renewed Church [Hodder 1992]"

It's reminders like this that helps me keep the main thing the main thing!

GOD Bless the Church

Thanks Duanne Cottrell for this (in his words) personal manifesto.

Godless atheist? from S'pore

I some how got linked to http://www.singaporeatheist.com/ because of his rant about a Singaporean lady-pastor who's shot to stardom lately. Reading his "my background" page struck me ... with what's going on in his mind. And it makes me wonder "how" I would relate to him if he's sitting in front of me right now, and "how" I'd engage his thoughts ...

Here's some excepts (not for the faint hearted!):
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The main reason I converted was I found a strange sense of unity amongst these people, sharing their lives, worshipping god, always happy, no matter what happened. The fellowship I experienced in their presence was certainly very heart-warming, something I had not experienced elsewhere. ...

I ignored all reason when praising and worshipping god, gave out of everything I had to the church building fund (boy, what a scam!), got myself baptised, even went round evangelising to total strangers in my university and actively read the Bible. Ironically, it was by doing all this that I came to slowly realize that all that I have been believing in, was just a glorified fairy tale at best, and plain dangerous, evil bullshit at worst. ...

Questions I had never bothered asking myself before suddenly started to spring up in my mind, fueled by my intense love for reading. The more I read, the more I began to question, and the more I realised how badly I had been conned, by myself. I read books by religious people, including the Qur'an, (I had already read bits of the Geetha and other Hindu texts), C.S. Lewis, Ravi Zacharias, Josh McDowell etc. and atheists like George Smith, William Harwood and others. I found the arguments against the existence of a god far more convincing than those for. ...

This page will always serve to remind me of how stupid religion can make people when taken too seriously, and how much vile hatred is spouted by those purporting to carry the message of love. I do not aim to convert anyone through this page, nor do I intend to make you “see the truth” or any such horseshit. It is just a small venting off point for me. I thank religious fundamentalism for making me the godless atheist I am today. Without it, I wouldn't even have given a shit. ...

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Project Petaling Street

While it's a joy to be connected to what's happening globally, what's happenign locally is equally important. GLOCAL is a good word! Checking this out!

Public Space and Blog Space

"Yet I get nervous when I regularly read how people are seeing this as their substitute for gathering, and church." ~ for more read here

I appreciate his concern, here's my comments:
I get nervous too ... because the fact remains that many of the 40-50 people who are somehow part of our church are not that "connected" (either by choice, ignorance or simply busyness). And nothing beats good "old fashioned" face to face contact and interaction.

and yet, I feel there's no "substitute" that could "replace" the "incarnational"-Sacramenal-Real Presence of another person standing or sitting infront of me (plus of course I can't click them off - there's a vulnerability in that). The tools of technology may enrich and allow us to explore aspects which we have missed in the past. And I think it may also "magnify" aspects (e.g. the passivity that you talked about here) that in fact is the deeper concern at hand.

Great Malaysian Bloglist

The only few Malaysians I regularly check on are people who were or are with HELP College and those who visit this blog *grin*. I guess it's only right to have a serious look at other fellow Malaysians so I guess I'll start here

Ricebowl Journals

This is an Asian online Journal introduced to me by Kiffer. Maybe this will help me see how the Asians who put their thoughts on line think (interesting though the location a majority of at least the 1st 20-30 top bloggers mentioned are not in Asia). The rest of the work will be good old fashioned reading and face to face talks.

Emergent Democracy

While thinking about Emergent & Emerging (thanks to Maggi Dawn for that distinction!) I googled and came across this paper by on Emergent Democracy (which I think helps me see things from a different angle and a bigger picture)

Emerging Church ~ Thinking from Malaysia

I haven't sat down to seriously put some thoughts on this yet from where I come from unless the one in the Emergent UK group blog is a try or warm up. But reading some issues brought up by some "sensitive" brothers helps and will sharpen what's on my mind (I decided to put some comments for them):

"where are the voices of our brothers and sisters following Jesus in the developing world? How can we best represent them if they in fact need representation, in this Emerging Church Debate?" ~ From Last one for the day I swear...

"the latin/african church, i suspect, is fairly indiginous to its culture(s), and in that sense it has been emerging (in steve.taylor's sense of the word) for many years. they are the emergent forerunners." (by the Baldman)

"The only confusion I have with the whole deal is the way in which we have exported Christianity to the developing world. I cannot speak for South America as I have never travelled there but my work in South East Asia has taken me to many churches in a few countries in that area. The expressions of church in those places is decidedly medieval Western Europe centric in terms of ecclesiology, and while I think about it, culture, liturgy, social practices et al."

~ From The Bald Man, The Emerging Church, and Voices from the Developing World...

"I don’t find much in the “emergent” conversation that helps me to understand the multi-cultural suburbs of Paris, as “post-modern” as this context is or might be. I have to go to Africa for that...or at least talk to my neighbors. It seems to me my “emergent” cyber-friends could also learn something about what God is doing in the world if they looked South (and I’m not talking about New Zealand) or simply opened their eyes to the “ethnic” churches springing up all over western urban centers and their understanding of "post-modern" phenomena."

"The center piece of our epoch in church history is that the vital center of global Christianity has moved to the Southern hemisphere. This phenomenon has been called the “browning” of the church. I am precisely interested in the point of contact between Christian Africa and Post-Christian France, the place where I live and work everyday. Can anyone help me?"
~ From the metissage of the church

Tomorrow will be better

Ming Tian Hui Geng Hao! (Tomorrow will be better in mandarin) Of course, tomorrow means the next one or two weekslah!

For starters, I think the new domain name is likely going to be http://sivinkit.net/ (unless another sivinkit takes it) and with the help of my young tech-guru Kiffer, he'll coach me to learn how to "play" with the stuff behind the scenes. I hope to organize previous blogs a little into some category (maybe try to write articles or draw some pictures *grin*), get a nice photo gallery going, start a forum and get some response (especially "local" Malaysians - all welcome of course!).

Kiffer has been allowing me to use his space for my "blogging" journey. I felt it's time to be on my own and give the space to other people he might be helping & coaching. Thanks for all the "space" & tips ...

Journalist

Just came back from a speaking engagement at a Methodist Youth Fellowship (which actually has more young working adults than even college people). I was delighted to meet two journalist there - both ladies! (where's the men?). Thus, this week I've been in touch with three journalists in total (all ladies!). I was wondering how could I add extra encouragement & spark ideas in them to help them see the value and significance of their role in the "Bigger" agenda of the kingdom? (which is a basic question I ask when I talk about any job!)

S.o.S

I decided to read the Song of Songs (using the Message) one day before Valentine's Day. Phew ....

To Sermon or not to Sermon

Here's an interesting article ~ Is our preaching out of touch? but Maggi Dawn's no-preparation sermon really got my attention :-)

consider the following insights from her:
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What's interesting, though, is the effect of the unprepared sermon. Instead of preaching, I'm simply talking, out of the breadth of my knowledge and experience, in immediate response to the readings. Instead of the security and superiority of a well-prepared message, I offer something in vulnerability: it's not beatifully crafted, not perfectly 'wrapped'; there are moments when I have to pause to find the right word, or go back over something and say it again because it didn't come out right the first time. I've noticed a definite receptiveness to this kind of talking-homily; also a freedom for people to pick up the conversation later over coffee. Perhaps the very fact it's unpolished gives people the confidence to take the conversation further.
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Better late than never

Finally, I posted some thoughts on the emergent group blog.

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Thanks Jason for inviting me to this group blog. In Malaysia especially in Kuala Lumpur we have a tendency to be late for appointments and we usually blame the traffic (which has gone nuts lately). Anyway, introductions are necessary since I stay on the other side of planet earth and sometimes wonder why I'm attracted to the conversations revolving around the "Emerging Church" (maybe because in Asia we never managed to really emerged yet or are still emerging?!) Lines of convergence: global-urban-postmodern by Geoff Holsclaw is interesting in this regard.

My full name is Sivin Kit Hsiao Ming (here's my blog for more current thinking). Kit is my surname, Sivin is my English name (it''s origins is a strange story) and Hsiao Ming (in Chinese means the voice of a bird singing in the dawn or one who knows how to sing). I'm 32 year old Malaysian Chinese married to one wife and have a 16 month old son. My education in Mandarin, Malay & English (I spent five memorable childhood years in England). I think I'm middle class by our standards but I wouldn't consider myself affluent. In many way I would see my generation as the one who grew up in the Dr. Mahathir Era (prime minister for 22 years, phew!) and now experiencing the changes with a new prime minister (who's just completed his 100 days yesterday) - we've just been going through changes after changes & challenges after challenges as a nation and as Christians (all of us globally too haven't we?). Presently, I pastor a young four year old church ~ Bangsar Lutheran Church. Before this I served as a youth & worship pastor in the home church I grew up in. I pretty much grew up in the city, so I've got minimal experience in the rural areas personally and pastorally. I was wondering the past week what to write. I think I'll start from a personal question:

Why do I (on this side of planet earth) feel at home in some of the discussions around the "emerging church" (which some might think is only western church phenomena) and would be willing to join the conversation? Well ... let me try to answer that:

1. I felt some issues were converging. It was rare to read stuff that resonated with some (not all) the questions and experiences I faced starting especially during seminary days and since starting & pastoring this young church. We still don't have much written from an Asian perspective, so we're still dependant on a lot of material from the west. So all the Brian McLaren stuff was very refreshing (that was four years ago and still is today). For me it wasn't whether it's from the east or west, I felt many issues raised were very human issues .... first & foremost.

2. The "willingness to initiate conversation and listen" to a variety of voices is one value I feel is very valuable especially at this global level. Though in many Asian churches here this may not be the case because conformity, control and submitting to authority seem to be the dominant driving force at leadership levels. But I believe the reality is at a deeper level many would hunger and yearn to be heard and mutually work towards a solution. I see myself as one of these. It's ironic that especially in the business sector there's such a strong drivenness and yet there's also this talk about good relations ("Guan Xi") which demands respect conversating and listening.

3. The conscious effort to go beyond mere surface issues of methodology and style and get into theological thinking, and contextual awareness .. and missiological innovations. Pragmatism rules here in Malaysian churches. At seminary I could see how some of my teachers struggled to see how they could counter this kind of "framework". Every sort of methodologicial package has been introduced to Malaysia in all sorts of shapes and sizes (cf. seminars), some helpful, others harmful. The gap between the more reflective thinkers (e.g.. seminary lecturers)and the pragmatic practitioners (e.g. Pastors & church leaders) may drift too wide if nothings done about it. Thus, I appreciate what Emergent is doing with dialogues with people like NT Wright & Walter Brueggamen. It gave me some hope and ideas what could be done (I've been talking with one of the seminary's principal on possibilities, and hope to initiate a informal group of 4-5 end of this month to see where it goes from here).

4. All this not done in an ivory tower manner. The beauty of this whole thing is we're very much on the ground level trying to work things out and think things through while in the midst of slogging in out in daily life & ministry in and through the church. And since I started blogging and reading other people's blogs, i've found mirrors that not only reflect what's going on in their particular context, at times it serves to to help me see myself. We're not just looking into the sky for help, we look at one another and keep our eyes on the ground. That's valuable.

I was reading the revised and expanded version of Models of Contextual Theology by Stephen B. Bevans and found some ways to think about the context I'm in right now which is the background which the above 4 poins arose. Because it's hard to say whether how Malaysia fits into the whole modern/postmodern discussion (Wikipedia has a good summary on Malaysia) ~ maybe that's why I feel more included in the term "emerging". I've already mentioned the more personal stuff ...

Next , on a more public level, Like many other South East Asian Countries we're in the post-colonial era, and overwhelmed by the forces of globalization (whatever that means), struggling to achieve the vision to be a developed nation. Islam is the dominant religion here (60% of the population are muslim). The Chinese would mostly be nominal Taoist or Buddhist , and the same could be said of the Indians for Hinduism. Of course, there's always the mix of atheist or independent religious groups. Often religion goes along the racial lines and is still a very sensitive matter. The 11% Christians (including the Roman Catholics) have a mixture of races (except there would be few Malays who are Christians ~ that's another long story). Then there's the more "modern" or "postmodern" influenced people ... whether it's from money to MTV. McDonalds to Movies.. etc.

As for churches or para-churches, most people probably would have heard more about the "cell church" than the "emerging church". Almost all churches have Evangelical, Pentecostal & Charismatic influences (hardly any liberals here!). To many of my teachers in seminary, there's was a great concern that we'll drift more and more into anti-intellectualism here. Some groups like Fellowship of Evangelical students & Kairos Research Centre would want to encourage more critical thinking (sound very "modern" huh! *grin*) some newer churches are "emerging" inside and outside "traditional denominational structures". For example, I see the church I serve as one within a denominational structure (Lutheran), I know a friend left a Charismatic church and more like a house-church, another friend who had always led a "para-church" youth organization starting his own church (which to some might look like a youth church), and so on all of us below 40 years old. All of us are extremely different apart from enjoying each others company and encouragement once a while. That's just the surface .... a little bit about where I come from.

wow! I realized this is a long post ... it's late and it's long. Thanks for your patience & listening ear.

Posted by Sivin Kit on February 11, 2004 at 05:26 PM | Permalink
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Wikipedia - The Free Encyclopedia

wow! it's free and it tries to include the world's different languages on the project ... phew! For fun I checked out Bangsar Lutheran Church (separately).Here's what it says about Bangsar (then Lutheran ... then Church):
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Bangsar is a popular district in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, known for its nightlife.

and yet a bunch of us meets at the Father's House where there's peace and quiet at the edge of Bangsar ...

about Lutheran ...

The Lutheran Church traces its doctrines to Martin Luther, who started the Protestant Reformation, resulting in Protestantism.

Most Lutheran churches accept conventional Protestant theology. They are distinguished by a belief that the Bible is the inspired word of God, the priesthood of all believers, a belief in the efficacy of infant baptism, a sung liturgy, and an emphasis on faith in God as the basis of Christian experience.

and yet more than half of us are not from the Lutheran church background - you name it from Buddhist to Baptist! while somehow linked to the Lutherans we're very much figure it out how to be Christ-followers (cf. Christians!)

Click here for more info onLutheran

and about church ...

The word church has several meanings, including:

* A surname. Those with the surname "Church" include the logician Alonzo Church (famous for the Church-Turing thesis), the painter Frederic Edwin Church, and the writer Francis Pharcellus Church (famous for the editorial "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus"). Church's Chicken, a brand of fried chicken.

we do have a building but it looks more like a house than a "church building" (because it was previously two semi-D houses morphed into the Father's House *grin*). We wqrship together on Sunday at 10am (that's normal right?), and yet we meet in smaller groups of 3 - 10 people from scattered on different days from Tuesday to Saturday. The word "Body of Christ" is in our Mission Statement just to keep us on track so we won't drift into some organizational illusion away from Biblical vision. We are part of a small denomination ~ the Lutheran Church in Malaysia. And as far as brand name is concerned - Bangsar Lutheran Church isn't very cool ... but we'll live with it! how about BLC for Be Loving Church?!

Click here for more info on Church
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the cluetrain manifesto

If businesses take our humanity seriously, maybe there's hope ... :-) I found the following heart-cry quote .. gripping!

95 Theses

1. Markets are conversations.

2. Markets consist of human beings, not demographic sectors.

3. Conversations among human beings sound human. They are conducted in a human voice.

4. Whether delivering information, opinions, perspectives, dissenting arguments or humorous asides, the human voice is typically open, natural, uncontrived.

5. People recognize each other as such from the sound of this voice.

6. The Internet is enabling conversations among human beings that were simply not possible in the era of mass media.

7. Hyperlinks subvert hierarchy.

8. In both internetworked markets and among intranetworked employees, people are speaking to each other in a powerful new way.

9. These networked conversations are enabling powerful new forms of social organization and knowledge exchange to emerge.

10. As a result, markets are getting smarter, more informed, more organized. Participation in a networked market changes people fundamentally.

11. People in networked markets have figured out that they get far better information and support from one another than from vendors. So much for corporate rhetoric about adding value to commoditized products.

12. There are no secrets. The networked market knows more than companies do about their own products. And whether the news is good or bad, they tell everyone.

13. What's happening to markets is also happening among employees. A metaphysical construct called "The Company" is the only thing standing between the two.

14. Corporations do not speak in the same voice as these new networked conversations. To their intended online audiences, companies sound hollow, flat, literally inhuman.

15. In just a few more years, the current homogenized "voice" of business—the sound of mission statements and brochures—will seem as contrived and artificial as the language of the 18th century French court.

16. Already, companies that speak in the language of the pitch, the dog-and-pony show, are no longer speaking to anyone.

17. Companies that assume online markets are the same markets that used to watch their ads on television are kidding themselves.

18. Companies that don't realize their markets are now networked person-to-person, getting smarter as a result and deeply joined in conversation are missing their best opportunity.

19. Companies can now communicate with their markets directly. If they blow it, it could be their last chance.

20. Companies need to realize their markets are often laughing. At them.

21. Companies need to lighten up and take themselves less seriously. They need to get a sense of humor.

22. Getting a sense of humor does not mean putting some jokes on the corporate web site. Rather, it requires big values, a little humility, straight talk, and a genuine point of view.

23. Companies attempting to "position" themselves need to take a position. Optimally, it should relate to something their market actually cares about.

24. Bombastic boasts—"We are positioned to become the preeminent provider of XYZ"—do not constitute a position.

25. Companies need to come down from their Ivory Towers and talk to the people with whom they hope to create relationships.

26. Public Relations does not relate to the public. Companies are deeply afraid of their markets.

27. By speaking in language that is distant, uninviting, arrogant, they build walls to keep markets at bay.

28. Most marketing programs are based on the fear that the market might see what's really going on inside the company.

29. Elvis said it best: "We can't go on together with suspicious minds."

30. Brand loyalty is the corporate version of going steady, but the breakup is inevitable—and coming fast. Because they are networked, smart markets are able to renegotiate relationships with blinding speed.

31. Networked markets can change suppliers overnight. Networked knowledge workers can change employers over lunch. Your own "downsizing initiatives" taught us to ask the question: "Loyalty? What's that?"

32. Smart markets will find suppliers who speak their own language.

33. Learning to speak with a human voice is not a parlor trick. It can't be "picked up" at some tony conference.

34. To speak with a human voice, companies must share the concerns of their communities.

35. But first, they must belong to a community.

36. Companies must ask themselves where their corporate cultures end.

37. If their cultures end before the community begins, they will have no market.

38. Human communities are based on discourse—on human speech about human concerns.

39. The community of discourse is the market.

40. Companies that do not belong to a community of discourse will die.

41. Companies make a religion of security, but this is largely a red herring. Most are protecting less against competitors than against their own market and workforce.

42. As with networked markets, people are also talking to each other directly inside the company—and not just about rules and regulations, boardroom directives, bottom lines.

43. Such conversations are taking place today on corporate intranets. But only when the conditions are right.

44. Companies typically install intranets top-down to distribute HR policies and other corporate information that workers are doing their best to ignore.

45. Intranets naturally tend to route around boredom. The best are built bottom-up by engaged individuals cooperating to construct something far more valuable: an intranetworked corporate conversation.

46. A healthy intranet organizes workers in many meanings of the word. Its effect is more radical than the agenda of any union.

47. While this scares companies witless, they also depend heavily on open intranets to generate and share critical knowledge. They need to resist the urge to "improve" or control these networked conversations.

48. When corporate intranets are not constrained by fear and legalistic rules, the type of conversation they encourage sounds remarkably like the conversation of the networked marketplace.

49. Org charts worked in an older economy where plans could be fully understood from atop steep management pyramids and detailed work orders could be handed down from on high.

50. Today, the org chart is hyperlinked, not hierarchical. Respect for hands-on knowledge wins over respect for abstract authority.

51. Command-and-control management styles both derive from and reinforce bureaucracy, power tripping and an overall culture of paranoia.

52. Paranoia kills conversation. That's its point. But lack of open conversation kills companies.

53. There are two conversations going on. One inside the company. One with the market.

54. In most cases, neither conversation is going very well. Almost invariably, the cause of failure can be traced to obsolete notions of command and control.

55. As policy, these notions are poisonous. As tools, they are broken. Command and control are met with hostility by intranetworked knowledge workers and generate distrust in internetworked markets.

56. These two conversations want to talk to each other. They are speaking the same language. They recognize each other's voices.

57. Smart companies will get out of the way and help the inevitable to happen sooner.

58. If willingness to get out of the way is taken as a measure of IQ, then very few companies have yet wised up.

59. However subliminally at the moment, millions of people now online perceive companies as little more than quaint legal fictions that are actively preventing these conversations from intersecting.

60. This is suicidal. Markets want to talk to companies.

61. Sadly, the part of the company a networked market wants to talk to is usually hidden behind a smokescreen of hucksterism, of language that rings false—and often is.

62. Markets do not want to talk to flacks and hucksters. They want to participate in the conversations going on behind the corporate firewall.

63. De-cloaking, getting personal: We are those markets. We want to talk to you.

64. We want access to your corporate information, to your plans and strategies, your best thinking, your genuine knowledge. We will not settle for the 4-color brochure, for web sites chock-a-block with eye candy but lacking any substance.

65. We're also the workers who make your companies go. We want to talk to customers directly in our own voices, not in platitudes written into a script.

66. As markets, as workers, both of us are sick to death of getting our information by remote control. Why do we need faceless annual reports and third-hand market research studies to introduce us to each other?

67. As markets, as workers, we wonder why you're not listening. You seem to be speaking a different language.

68. The inflated self-important jargon you sling around—in the press, at your conferences—what's that got to do with us?

69. Maybe you're impressing your investors. Maybe you're impressing Wall Street. You're not impressing us.

70. If you don't impress us, your investors are going to take a bath. Don't they understand this? If they did, they wouldn't let you talk that way.

71. Your tired notions of "the market" make our eyes glaze over. We don't recognize ourselves in your projections—perhaps because we know we're already elsewhere.

72. We like this new marketplace much better. In fact, we are creating it.

73. You're invited, but it's our world. Take your shoes off at the door. If you want to barter with us, get down off that camel!

74. We are immune to advertising. Just forget it.

75. If you want us to talk to you, tell us something. Make it something interesting for a change.

76. We've got some ideas for you too: some new tools we need, some better service. Stuff we'd be willing to pay for. Got a minute?

77. You're too busy "doing business" to answer our email? Oh gosh, sorry, gee, we'll come back later. Maybe.

78. You want us to pay? We want you to pay attention.

79. We want you to drop your trip, come out of your neurotic self-involvement, join the party.

80. Don't worry, you can still make money. That is, as long as it's not the only thing on your mind.

81. Have you noticed that, in itself, money is kind of one-dimensional and boring? What else can we talk about?

82. Your product broke. Why? We'd like to ask the guy who made it. Your corporate strategy makes no sense. We'd like to have a chat with your CEO. What do you mean she's not in?

83. We want you to take 50 million of us as seriously as you take one reporter from The Wall Street Journal.

84. We know some people from your company. They're pretty cool online. Do you have any more like that you're hiding? Can they come out and play?

85. When we have questions we turn to each other for answers. If you didn't have such a tight rein on "your people" maybe they'd be among the people we'd turn to.

86. When we're not busy being your "target market," many of us are your people. We'd rather be talking to friends online than watching the clock. That would get your name around better than your entire million dollar web site. But you tell us speaking to the market is Marketing's job.

87. We'd like it if you got what's going on here. That'd be real nice. But it would be a big mistake to think we're holding our breath.

88. We have better things to do than worry about whether you'll change in time to get our business. Business is only a part of our lives. It seems to be all of yours. Think about it: who needs whom?

89. We have real power and we know it. If you don't quite see the light, some other outfit will come along that's more attentive, more interesting, more fun to play with.

90. Even at its worst, our newfound conversation is more interesting than most trade shows, more entertaining than any TV sitcom, and certainly more true-to-life than the corporate web sites we've been seeing.

91. Our allegiance is to ourselves—our friends, our new allies and acquaintances, even our sparring partners. Companies that have no part in this world, also have no future.

92. Companies are spending billions of dollars on Y2K. Why can't they hear this market timebomb ticking? The stakes are even higher.

93. We're both inside companies and outside them. The boundaries that separate our conversations look like the Berlin Wall today, but they're really just an annoyance. We know they're coming down. We're going to work from both sides to take them down.

94. To traditional corporations, networked conversations may appear confused, may sound confusing. But we are organizing faster than they are. We have better tools, more new ideas, no rules to slow us down.

95. We are waking up and linking to each other. We are watching. But we are not waiting.

Ministry to Children

Tonight, I need to facilitate a session where we get those involved in BLC's ministry to children on the same page and same direction. While I was driving I couldn't help but think about Gareth who's 16months old now. The big question coming from a very personal level is this ... "What kind of Children's Ministry would I send Gareth to?". From a more leader's perspective I'm asking "What kind of Church are we as we learn to help children along their spiritual journey?" (of course, I can't help but also think about families and the church as a whole now as well).

The first thing that surfaced in my mind honestly is what I don't want to see ... and that's of course some "harmful" ideas I've seen practiced today and in the past which until now I not only not comfortable with them, I have an immediate distaste for them. And yet, I wondered again and again, "Am I too critical?", "Maybe I don't understand?" , or "Is this just a personal baggage?".

Surfing & stumbling into gave me some framework, ideas and thoughts to "focus" my engagement with this crucial aspect of Christian life and ministry.

One of the things I found distasteful was the over-emphasis on "rewards" & competition" I saw in the children's ministries I was exposed to. And the following thoughts and articles affirmed me that I'm not over-reactive! Here are some quotes (bold-italics emphasis mine):

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From Rewards That Choke Interest
"Not only are rewards distracting and shortsighted, they may also actually kill interest in the very things we want learners to learn. How could this be? Everyone understands the nature of bribes. They’re designed to lure us into something we wouldn’t normally find that attractive. "

" Alfie Kohn reports on a number of research projects that support this contention in his book Punished by Rewards. In one such study, schoolchildren were split into two groups. The first group was told that to draw with felt-tip pens they must first draw with crayons. The other group was told the reverse. Two weeks later researchers found that whichever activity had been the prerequisite for the other was now less appealing to the students. Half the class didn’t want to draw with felt-tip markers, and half avoided the crayons. Whatever was required to earn the bribe was devalued.

Extrinsic rewards reduce intrinsic motivation. If a child’s Sunday school teacher requires learning the Bible in order to get a goody, then the Bible must be distasteful. Just like spinach. Is that what we want?"

From The Problem With Bribes (I decided to put the whole thing up ... we need to hear this!)

"Churches have used reward programs for so long that few people question their ultimate effectiveness or their possible weedy effect on learners’ long-term fruit-bearing. These programs have reached sacred cow status. Because of that, some people’s defensiveness unfurls into full battle mode. But we ask you to stick with us and explore this sensitive issue with a fresh perspective.

What many call "rewards" are in fact bribes. Yes, we understand this is an uglier term. But it seems to more aptly fit church scenarios such as those described above. A bribe is usually an unrelated goody that is offered to coerce people into doing something they wouldn’t ordinarily do. A bribe is a distraction. The briber says, "Keep your eye on this tempting goody while you do for me what you don’t want to do."

This psychology is called behaviorism, popularized by psychologist B. F. Skinner.

He conducted most of his research on rodents and pigeons, and then applied what he learned to the human species. His work centered around the idea of "do this and you’ll get that." Dogs can be trained to sit up if they’re rewarded with a treat. A bird trapped in a box can be trained to peck at a certain spot if seeds then drop into a dish. A little girl can be trained to memorize King James text if she gets one hundred Bible Bucks.

Skinner’s concept has been widely accepted. "Do-this-and- you’ll-get-that" thinking is practiced by dog trainers, teachers, parents, employers, lawmakers, and crooks. Preachers promise extra blessings if parishioners will drop more money into the offering plate. "Do this and you’ll get that." Parents offer money for their children’s good grades, extra hours of television for cleaning their rooms, lunch at McDonald’s for enduring Sunday school. "Do this and you’ll get that."

And Sunday school teachers offer all sorts of bribes: a gold star for showing up, a bookmark for bringing a Bible, a sticker for completing a worksheet, a ribbon for memorizing a verse, a candy bar for being docile. "Do this and you’ll get that."

So, what’s the problem? Aren’t these examples simply "positive reinforcement"? Here’s what the Parable of the Sower is telling us about "do this and you’ll get that":

People focus more on the "that" than the "this."

They’re distracted from the real issue. What the parable calls "desires for other things" may seem innocent enough. But when they distract a learner from the Word itself, they become choking weeds. These rewards become the focal point, not the Word.

Rewards play right into the parable’s warning about "the deceitfulness of wealth." We know from other biblical teachings that wealth itself is not evil. But the deceitfulness comes in when the wealth becomes our overriding desire. It takes our eyes off what’s really important. The deceitfulness then becomes a thorny weed, choking the Word and making it unfruitful.

Again, we know church people use rewards or bribes with good intentions. We often hear teachers say, "Listen, I just want my kids to know the Word. I’ll do anything that works." But do bribes really work?

From a behaviorist’s point of view, yes, they work. You can train an animal or a human to do certain things to get a treat. But what’s really being learned? What fruit is being produced? Sadly, even a behaviorist will tell you that a bribed person is only being trained to perform for the bribe.

This isn’t the kind of fruit God has in mind. He wants his children to have a deep relationship with him. Like any parent, he doesn’t want that relationship based on goodies. He wants a relationship based on love, not on bribes. No parent wants to hear, "I’ll tolerate you if you give me money every morning." Parents, including the Father in heaven, want a relationship built on unconditional love. Parents want to hear a child say, "I love you. I want a forever relationship with you. I love you because I love you, not because I expect goodies in return." Focusing on those goodies distracts the child from a genuine relationship.

That distracting focus can become addictive. Bribes are like dangerous drugs. The more they’re used, the more they seem to be needed. Church-based reward systems can quickly get out of control—like weeds in a farmer’s field."

From Competition: Trophies for Trivia

"Once again, the church leaders who organize and administrate such activities have the best of intentions. They’re trying to encourage Bible study by engaging kids in what they hope will be the thrill of competition. And these activities have gone on for so long, nobody questions their validity. But perhaps it’s time to take a closer look.

What’s the hidden curriculum here? What messages are really being communicated? We see a number of disturbing factors:

· An emphasis on trivia. To make the competitive bouts challenging, the organizers must write questions centering around rather obscure Bible facts. They can’t include questions on larger, more significant matters such as Jesus’ two great commandments. Too many students would know the answer. So the quizzing tends to concentrate on things such as wheat and spelt. What message does that send to students? Does the quizmaster’s preoccupation with minutia communicate that the Bible’s real use is as an encyclopedia of trivia? Does this perpetuate the bias that the Bible is not to be understood but merely jostled in short-term memory?

· An emphasis on bribes. The lures are the trophies, the temporary fame, the advancement to finals. Are these kids learning to love the Bible or learning to lust after the prizes?

· A cauldron of worry. The atmosphere at a Bible quizzing competition is often a pressure cooker of fretting and tension. When the competitors take their seats, all smiles disappear. This is serious business. That quizmaster wants to know about wheat and spelt and other fact-intensive subjects. We return to the Parable of the Sower. They "hear the word, but the worries of this life…choke the word." Competitive conflicts such as these promote worry. Does that contribute to the fruitfulness of the Word?

· An adversarial relationship. The whole concept of Bible quizzing hinges on competition. And competition relies on winners and losers. This setup naturally pits teams against one another. When it comes to Bible knowledge, Team A is hoping and praying that Team B knows fewer facts. Team A’s glee is contingent upon Team B’s failure. Is that what the church is all about—hoping someone else knows less of God’s Word?

Let’s examine these factors a little closer."
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New Kind of Science

Stephen Wolfram has made the complete text of his New Kind of Science (a 1000+-page treatise on the way that virtually everything in the universe can be explained with cellular automata), which he self-published a couple years back with some of the squillions of dollars he's earned on his seminal Mathematica software program, available for free on the Internet ~ via Boing Boing Blog

I read the preface and will probably find some time later to check this book out. I like free books online ... it's good for people like me who find books very expensive nowdays and tough on the budget! But, the attraction for me in reading this book is it sparks in my mind what a New Kind of Theology could be ... or a New Kind of Ecclesiology or a New Kind of Missiology ... or a New Kind of Spirituality, the list goes on ... (that was sparked after reading McLaren's The Church on the Other side and A new Kind of Christian)

Emerging Church

Jason Clark was kind enough to invite me to join the emergent group blog. Haven't put up my maiden post yet, maybe little shy? Most of the voices on the "Emerging Church" are from UK, USA, Australia, New Zealand, and maybe parts of Europe. The "language" is mostly framed with the however-you-define-it "postmodernity" in mind. So I do feel timid and a little inferior so speak as a 32 year old Asian - Malaysian - Chinese-male (actually why should I feel this way ... just being honest here!).

I'm planning to enjoy this weekend's ministry first with our Interactive Worship gathering tomorrow and teach our first See Through the Scriptures class and then be a "contributor" to HELP Christian Fellowship's Leaders Training from 2pm -7pm, and then try to put some thoughts down.

I thought of using the questions & reflections from Andrew Jones who's been doing a wonderful job getting the conversation going with the following posts:

Defining the Emerging Church
Emerging Church Definition 1.0
Emerging Church Definition 2.0
Emerging Church Definition 3.0
Emerging Church Definition 4.0

Every day, New Fantastic Possibilities

I done this I don't know how many times ... but answering four questions only is quick! I'm still and ENFP .... for more click here for free test.

Here's what the test says about me .... heheh!
__________________

What's there to say about you? You're an initiator of change and are keenly in tune to possibilities... you're enthusiastic, and it's contagious...you're tireless in the pursuit of newfound interests... You can anticipate the needs of others, and offer them needed help and appreciation. You bring zest, livelihood, and fun to all aspects of your life...

Last part: watch out for losing your focus 'cause you wanna try too many ideas at the same time... you don't prioritize, so you can overload...also, because you're just a fun-loving animal, you might not complete important work and basic responsibilities...

ENFP: "Every day, New Fantastic Possibilities"
_______________________

Influence

Just came back from a speaking engagement with HELP Christian Fellowship. It's great to have a closer relationship with them last year and especially this year. Shared from the book of Daniel today and considered how we can be of any influence in an environment where we seem to be "powerless" in the face of whatever "dominant system". The assurance for me is that GOD empowers us with insight and understanding, we start by "seeing" things from a different perspective (cf. GOD-STORY lens) and act from that center. The 6 "soul" stories and 4 "sovereign" visions (in Eugene Peterson's words) assure me that GOD is working behind the scenes and we get a chance to be part of it in someway ~ a more silent-subversive way?!

A surprise visit to backyard missionaries encouraged with the following words:

"Ivan Illich was once asked 'what is the most revolutionary way to change society? Is it violent revolution or is it gradual reform?'

I sometimes seem to find myself in places where I disagree with the dominant system, but I also wonder the best way is to bring about change. A rant on a soap box is one approach, but perhaps the more subversive method Illich suggests will ultimately see a more significant and genuine change occur as people's imaginations are captured by the way things could be..."

CoachNet

After a couple of days with a Natural Church Development coaching seminar with Christoph Schalk probably 2 years ago. I decided to subscribe to CoachNet because I tend to operate with intuition and I felt some strategic-process-linear thinking would do me some good. And I think it has ...

Justin Baeder's blog after getting a Purpose Driven catalog was interesting (though sparked by something different in attitude-wise may be relevant):

"I got a Purpose Driven catalog in the mail today, and I didn't feel any cynicism. This is a sign of growth.

I'm starting to feel that none of the quality resources and programs developed by the modern church is inherently a bad thing. Not the only thing, and not the end-all, be-all answer to fulfilling the mission of the church. But certainly not bad for modern contexts, which there are still plenty of."

Maybe working through worksheets are too "modern" and linear for some, or maybe it appears too formulaic. But, taking myself out-of-this-kind-of-box and asking myself honestly, am I a little too "fuzzy" here and need some clarity? Am I simply too lazy to do the hard work of thinking things through and I could use these tools to help me ... why not? I like CoachNet because it's got useful reflective questions and loads of resources to get me started. I'll tweak stuff when I go along.

Maybe that's how some of us will proceed in our journey as we work out GOD's mission in our respective contexts. As long as we don't stop learning and settle into the-"programme"-will-solve-our-problems kind of mentality, programs are harmless and become helpful. Overreaction won't help ... I like Justin's attitude, takes unnecessary guilt off our chest if we're dabbling with "programs" or modern tools:

"Programs come and go, and are a good thing. Personally, I feel called to run some programs right now that will reach out to people and offer them something of God to grasp at. Maybe I won't feel like that in a few years or months. I also feel the need to spend more time with people rather than on ideas or events. But I know there are many answers to this emerging church thing, and that is why this discussion is so important, and why we must keep it open and "out of the box." Sometimes out-of-the-box thinking will require us to do quite a lot within existing boxes."

FreeMind

FreeMind is a premier free mind-mapping software written in Java. I'm still figuring how to use it properly ... tried it last week to organize my thoughts on the retreat. I still prefer markers, pen and paper ... but this is still useful!

Mozilla Firebird 0.7

Thanks Kiffer for introducing me to this "Next generation"-browser ... I'm enjoying the tab-browsing function! Click the logo for more ...

ALLELON

What a fantastic "mandarin-orange-red" coloured face-lift and lots of upgrade ... a wonderful way to approach the last day of Chinese New year tomorrow called "Chap Goh Mei"!

Scripture Listening

Eugene Peterson drew my attention in one of his writings (possibly from his pastoral theology series) that the Scriptures are meant to be heard. There's a "personal encounter" somehow when one reads aloud and another listens which is diffirent when one sits alone and reads a passage silently. One of the comments at the "Sabbath Retreat" is when we were doing LECTIO DIVINA, as beginners they found it easier when another person was reading and they just "restfully" listened.

We're reading Genesis together as a church, I decided to listen for a change. Thanks to Bible Gateway for New International Version (NIV) Audio Bible

Sabbath Retreat

We just came back yesterday afternoon from a Two-day-one-night "Sabbath Retreat" at Selesa Hillhomes.

It all started some years ago when BLC got "resurrected". I always wanted to bring a small group of about 10-12 people for a kind of "restful" retreat where we could sleep, play a little, eat, pray and enjoy a taste "monastic" life - i.e. have space to enjoy GOD's presence (of course our contextualized Malaysian version maybe overdid the eating bit! *grin*). Here's how this mini-vision got realized:

DAY 1
Last Sunday morning started as usual with May Chin & me getting Gareth ready for BLC's Worship Gathering. It was harder than usual because he wasn't feeling well with fever. Both of us hardly slept the night before (especially mummy). What a start ... for the Retreat guide ... OUCH!

Rev. Wolfgang shared a timely word for us from 1 Corinthians 12 on "The Church - a community of strengths & weaknesses". After this "Holy Communion" Worship Gathering. 11 of us in three Malaysian made cars transited at McDonalds for lunch. The way we sat in McD almost looked like Da Vinci's "Last Supper" painting ... Tapio (who's from Finland) just thought the exact same thoughts I did. We're already moving on the same wavelength ... good. The "Properity burger" set was quite good actually and so was the Vanilla coke ... thanks to Chin Hor's recommendation.

a mini "crisis" episode was when the other 2 cars made a different turning and lost their shepherd (me!) who was leading in front (I just drove a little bit faster and they lost me and followed the wrong car - is there a moral in this for church leadership? hehe)

We arrived safely ... and with an "orientation" - each released to rest, relax or simply spend some time refocusing with a guide I "pasted" together. Throughout the afternoon, some slept (and I mean they really SLEPT!), some jumped into the pool and we were laughing about the fashion sense of the guy's swimming trunks - classic or speedo?! (opps!)

The two toddlers were having their own sweet time ... Gareth (15months old) recovering from fever and a not-so-happy mood. Jannel (one month younger than Gareth) was wide awake excited about the new surroundings ... no nap for her mummy Serene!

We regrouped and shuttled over to the small town opposite the resort for cheaper food ... RM95 for 6 dishes is ok. We were happy and got our physical needs settled. Then after a funny ice breaker and two simple songs ... we spent some time learning ...

1. Centering Prayer (here's a link I found from Truth Seeker on Centering Prayer)

After about 20minutes of silence & centering (with some mini noises from the toddlers - it was quite an experience for me to guide this with the two young ones - the mummy's helped out to settle them), we debriefed. Interestingly, one of the most insightful comments was how the kids "kind" of settled down more when we were silent ... lots of other interesting feedback as this is new for most of them.

Then we moved on to ...

2. Lectio Divina (Divine Reading)
I chose a short passage from 1 Cor 13. After the silence, we shared how we felt the LORD spoke to us personally and the struggles we had during the process. Again, a wonderful time ... (check out ACCEPTING THE EMBRACE OF GOD: THE ANCIENT ART of LECTIO DIVINA for another way of looking at it)

Knowing this is more like an introduction of Journaling, silence, centering, & lectio divina for all of them. I included "supper" into the schedule. So, they won't get too much of a "shock" with "Silence". We landed up having SATAY with Ken Beng expounding from his vast SATAYING experience what a good Satay is ... we finished eating the whole lot anyway!

Horizontal meditation( I mean sleep) afterward (while some chit-chated until later).

DAY 2
Omelletes from our two Iron Chefs ... Moh Foong (who did the classic crispier edged version) and Kelvin (wtih a touch of tender loving care). Sausages and eggs and tuna tasted very good during the cool morning ... almost wanted to ask Shu Shen to get us into some Aerobics ... but the food was too tempting ...

We spent the next 2 and half hours alone ... practicing what we learnt privately ... it rained throughout the temperature and mood was somehow more condusive for this ...

We regathered just before lunch and checking out. And I was very blessed by Susan who's new to BLC sharing how her time with GOD moved her to give a call to someone in need. That touched me because of the movement of God's Spirit upon her was simply and genuine...

John talked about how he had some kind of rhythm centering & then doing lectio divina and then centering again.

Kelvin asked a very good question on "what happens when the toughts wander or all sorts of things surface?"

There's more .... that's just a glimpse of our conversations ... I find myself benefiting so much by the "improvisations" that emerged through the last two days.

We closed with intercession so we'll be readier to return to "the land of mordor" in KL-PJ. And enjoyed a great "last lunch" at a different restraunt. The journey home was safe and I'm just grateful ...

Pictures will be coming soon ... to celebrate again the "memories" & "moments" from this retreat. Sola Dei Gloria