Sivin Kit's Garden

Emergent latest ...

An Interview with Scot McKnight
Hey thanks Scot … I saw a familiar name in the interview :-)

How Emergent Are You? McLaren's Seven Layers of the Emergent Conversation
Layers makes it sound like some onion … I like onions! I’m getting hungry …

James Macdonald and Emergent
Caricatures tend to distract us from the real people we are engaging ... hmm ... I know it works both ways.

Blog-debating
I've been a little out of touch with the debate ... but eavesdropping here helps clarify what's going on ... the following is pretty good, "Because emerging is neither neo-orthodox nor neo-liberal, and not even simply old-fashioned evangelicalism, it will have features from each of the movements behind it — including (God be thanked) classical creedal Christianity. The frustration of many in trying to define it is, in my judgment, the fault in part of emerging itself for it is both in process and unwilling to let itself be defined by a theological system.
Instead, it seeks to be faithful to the summons of Jesus to live as followers of Jesus, to live out the Kingdom in everything we do and say, and to let the chips fall where they may."

Emerging Solutions—and Problems
Prof. Gibbs words here are worth a pause, “… in a post-Christian and increasingly neo-pagan society, people need to see the gospel in action and to be included. Thus they will experience the impact of the message as part of coming to believe. The distinction between Carson and emergent leaders may lie in the difference between the faith as a "bounded" set, one that defines who is inside and who is outside, and a "centered" set, which is more concerned with the direction in which people are traveling, toward or away from Christ.”

A Brief Snapshot of the Emerging Church
Interesting ..

Will rounds it up nicely with the following ... “Speaking of "the church that is emerging," Brian McLaren mentioned that this might be a better title than "the emerging church." I like that because it connects deeply into the Church at her root rather than speaking of the work we are participating in as some new expression.” Ok, fellow Africans and Asians and Latin American brothers and sisters ... we're joining the party too .. or perhaps they are joining our party ... nevermind ... we're all in this party?!

More from eMo meeting ...

I realize that many have not yet been initiated "carefully" into the subject of modernity and postmodernity in our Malaysian context (as well as what all this means to us) ... this is so true after observing and listening to some reaction at a session in the latest youth consultation organized by NECF (more on this important consultation in another post) . It's still very fuzzy for many and even totally unknown. Hmm ....

after that in hindsight I think Alwyn did a pretty good job trying his best to communicate what he understood as he grappled with the word "postmodern" and all that surrounds it. Here's some of his powerpoint slides and extra thoughts on Mo vs Pomo?

"... Anyway, I'm pasting two of the slides presented at last weekend's EMO/Pomo meeting. I find such comparisons helpful, if a little far from exactly 'reality-depicting' i.e. it's only generally true and all thinkers of whatever stripes would have surely some bones to pick with at least some of the pairs.

As I mentioned during the session, the asterisk-ed items are those pomo elements I find particularly helpful/beneficial for church, spirituality, theology, etc. This is not to deny the value and extent of "modernity's" contribution, only to suggest that maybe in this 'new world' we're in, it may be wise to go beyond them."

I'm glad that Kevin (a first time new comer for a meeting) gives us a feel of his impressions and feedback from this post My First EMO Meeting!

"So finally I become a participant… Well, still not really a participant! I was more trying to listen and see what I could learn from it rather than sharing my thoughts and views (not that I had much to say anyway, knowing nothing much about philosophy or postmodernism). I’m a little too shy for that! Plus, having all those pastors and seminary students around were quite intimidating for a first timer layman like me! But it was good to finally meet up with some of those bloggers in person! I also learned a few things about modernity and post-modernity, especially on their respective histories and contexts in which they came about.

One thing that really struck me was how the discussion would always be dragged back into our own context and practice as Christians here in Malaysia. Someone would always remind the group, “How do we apply that here?” or “How will that affect us?” I think this is a good way to go about these discussions, because they are always in danger of becoming detached from Christian praxis, or from our own Malaysian context (both of which I have been guilty of countless times in some of the discussions that I’ve been in!). It’s good to see Pastor Sivin and Emergent Malaysia moving towards that direction. I'm looking forward to the discussion on post-colonialism.

After "Mo-Pomo" eMo Meeting thoughts ...

(is there something subversive about this picture? *just in case some are wondering ... I'll note the Cross is still central ... grin*)

I'm not sure whether I'll have time to blog about a fruitful feeble attempt we tried last saturday at the emergent Malaysia open (eMo) meeting. so I'll let one of the presenters Alway share from Henry IV, Leaves & JFK

"I think the EMO session on Saturday was helpful to everyone. Whilst there was maybe some slight discomfort with the postmodern-oriented deliveries and 'agendas' (smile) of both Kia Meng and me, I think people generally brought home a richer perspective of post-modernity, its context, its implications, some misunderstandings of it and one or two ways the Church can 'milk it' for the kingdom. (Of nice added value was perhaps the fact that our EMO venue was also used as a trading-point for book enthusiasts, a 'den of wisdom' as Sivin strategically phrased it, hehe).

Some of the words post-modernity sparked in the participants are worth recalling: "Duh?", "Huh?" Yes. Very pomo: conceptually vague, but spot-on in 'embodying' the favour/mood/spirit of people!

I certainly benefited from Kia Meng's introduction to the historical events surrounding Descarte's (the 'big-time' philosopher who dominates many an elementary Maths textbook!) thoughts, Henry IV's preceding reforms and the impact of his conspiracy-soaked death. I confess I'm a nut in matters of medieval European history. Thanks, Kia Meng, for showing its link to "I am thinking, there I exist" (and for correcting the more popular, "I think, therefore I am" - he also noted how D.A. Carson today's society as one built around, "I shop, therefore I am"!).

Minor tension arose around Kia Meng's expressed rejection of the Basic Life program. But I think we can hold together both the value of a Western program transplated/imported to the East its occasionally uncritical use by over-enthusiastic (but no less God-loving) practitioners.

General principles are probably indispensable in our world and Church, but caution is needed to avoid blanking out completely the differences and individual uniqueness among and of particulars.

I'm glad Kia Meng highlighted this as it was then easier for me to explain Nietzsche's gripe with thinking during his time. The concept of a 'leaf' violates all leaves. And if our Basel professor had a problem with that, imagine his quarrel with the categorisation and 'grouping together' of ideas like God, Man, Society, Knowledge, etc.

My session was a blur to me (as it usually is whenever I 'evaluate' my own presentations). Most people looked as if they understood(!), but I didn't get many questions and I had to leave early so I couldn't quite gauge how most people felt.

I hope, at least, the books I put on the slide were helpful. Maybe I'll try to get an outline out soon. (Those interested to see the outline of my Hell talk can find it here).

Lots of work needed, surely, to reap spiritual fruit from these exchanges. The main issue is whether or not we live in a substantially 'new' world from that mainly characterized by modernity, what this new world considers important, worthy of attention, how this new world thinks, lives, feels, etc. and whether our former approaches need to be rethought and even replaced. Sivin and Yew Khuen's responses cum rejoinders to me and Kia Meng focused, if I'm not wrong, on the need to reconsider how and why we do what we do, in light of the whole pomo debate, whilst giving full credit to the contributions modernity has bestowed (and continue to bestow) on us.

Looking at my students, my church, my community (even in 2nd-world Kuala Lumpur), I certainly think the time is ripe for a new paradigm of truth and life (sorry if this sounds corny, summaries always do, don't they?!).

And if you're STILL wondering what the JFK pic is doing there, well, watch the movie and ask yourself: Is it a 'motion picture' or a documentary or what? Is it truth or fiction or some kind of hybrid? And, most importantly, do these distinctions matter?

Okay. There's a multi-player Half Life session going on around me. Time to party (grin)."

A new comer college student Doulos had these interesting to say from pomo which has an insightful twist at the last sentance ...
"Went to BLC today to listen to a discussion organized by the Emergent conversation of Malaysia headed by Ps.Sivin Kit. The topic was on Modernity, Postmodernity and what it means in Malaysia. More than two hours of hard stuff I must say. Understanding history and culture is important and I must say I got out of the session much more enlightened. Postmodernism is a very engaging topic. Introduced to this word in the beginning of the year and it continues to grab my interest. The only problem is that I have not fully understood what is modernity. So I will turn backwards a bit. hehe"

more when I can sqeeze some time ... I'm off to Genting at 12noon .. very little time.

Post Mooncake "EMO" meeting

When I mentioned "EMO" in a recent meeting with a bunch of varsity students I heard some "Aws" and "Ahs" :-) so when i realized what we've been calling our emergent malaysia open meetings can be called EMO meetings I thought that would be fun. But seriously, the guy who works with the National Bank wrote the following (I think he does a better job):

__________________________________________________________________

Postmodern Investigations

What is postmodernity? Where does it come from? What has it got to do with the church & Christianity? How are we to respond? Some believe it is a scourge to be challenged at all cost. Others welcome it as an opportunity to engage with today's culture. Yet there are those who think it is the latest fad in a series of methods to increase church attendance.

If these are some questions that you've been thinking about, come on down and join us in exploring this theme and its possible implications on the how we view and live out our faith.

Date: Saturday 24 September 2005
Time: 10am-12pm
Venue: Bangsar Lutheran Church, 23 Jalan Abdullah, 59000 Kuala Lumpur.

(For a map to the venue: click here)

We will listen to some sharing on the following areas, after which there will a time of interaction and discussion:
- History of modernity & its development
- Reaction of the church to modernity
- History of postmodernity & its development
- Reaction of the church to postmodernity
- Responses on what does all this have to do with us (or doesn't have to do with us)

Organised by a bunch of friends known as emergent Malaysia :-)
(as you can see I had a hand in the last line on organisers)
__________________________________________________________________

we were discussing about since often people associate "emergent" with the word "postmodern" .. we might as well give it a try engage this topic ... it will be a feeble and honest attempt by a bunch of Malaysian Christians (admitting all biases right from the start *grin*)... I'm looking forward to listening to how Mr. Gmail Theology and Mr. Appreciate Coconut Tree can help us get started.

Hopefully next we can engage with the word "postcolonial" in November before Christmas ... Sherman and I will have a trial run at a local private university setting on this :-) I'll leave that for the next "EMO" meeting ...

The Conversation continues ...

“What is Emerging?: A Conversation about a New Kind of Church”
I've downloaded all the mp3s ... looks good .. I'm listening to Brian's talk now, glanced through the powerpoint of Dr. Mike Wittmer this afternoon while I was downloading the rest. Interesting.

Brian McLaren and the Emergent Conversation…
Steve Argue lists down the questions he used to facilitate a panel discussion .. good questions. I liked his brief summary of the event, "The conversation, in my estimation, was really a conversation rather than a debate. What I experienced were three people, passionate about the gospel of Jesus and the church sharing their dreams, concerns, and critiques. Something was communicated beyond the “presentations” … a message that Christians of all types can truly dialogue with one another. I hope that spills over into all corners of Jesus following communities."

McLaren, Wittmer, Dobson...
an insightful comment on the audience in contrast with the presenters, "Really? Is this what God has called pastoral brothers and sisters to be? We are either for or against one another based on the writings of McLaren, Dobson, and Wittmer? The frustrating irony was that these guys were not the people who were trying to drum up the ranks to choose sides. It seemed more like acid reflux. Some of those within the audience couldn't help themselves."

"Emerging" ... emerging again!

What Is The Emerging Church? (mp3)
Brian McLaren starts by saying why he doesn't like the term "The Emerging Church" (I like the emerging edge *grin*)... so it's not about church, it's about mission ... these two words (church & mission) came up in a conversation yesterday I had in my discussion about my Masters :-) it's good to hear what's more important - i.e. following Jesus! counting the cost ... losing our lives ... etc. I'm looking forward to following this series.

What is Emerging?
Here's an earlier attempt to try to put words into what's "vibrating" inside many ..."Do not be surprised if you discover the emergent conversation includes thoughts and feelings that have already occurred to you. Perhaps we forget that when we talk about “the” Reformation, there have been many reformations in the Christian church, and its nature is self-reflexive and committed to correction and renewal."

The Emerging Church circa 1970
Interesting to hear what the recent author of the book "The Emerging Church" Dan Kimball says here, "Emerging in 1970, or emerging in 2005. I hope we are more concerned about Jesus and His thoughts of our service to Him than anything else."

Emerging Movement
I'm still trying to catch up with Scot McKnight's profilic blogging and input. The recent "Purple Theology" posts are adding "colour" to the discussion.

AN EXPLORATION OF THE EMERGING CHURCH IN THE UNITED STATES: THE MISSIOLOGICAL INTENT AND POTENTIAL IMPLICATIONS FOR THE FUTURE (pdf)
some hard work went into this ... thanks Aaron!

Immersed in emerging
Interesting Aussie-in-USA immersion.

How is Emerging Church different?
a U.K point of view ...

The Emerging Church: Ancient Faith for a Postmodern world
"Emerging church evangelicals comfortably draw on the rich traditions and practices of the diverse streams of Christianity, believing that by genuinely living where our common faith intersects, we can surpass the efforts of even the most successful ecumenical programs." ... this comment came in 2004.

12 Tension Points in the Emerging Church
A good checklist to keep us on our toes ...

Catching Up with Emergent Stuff and more...

I haven't been posting a lot relating directly to the Emergent Conversation lately ... but I'm still catching up with the it myself after quite a busy few weeks :-)

Unraveling Emergent
here are some of Doug's phrases that caught my attention:
"As Christ-centered people, many of us understand the Gospel in terms of Jesus’ radical, profound, and expansive message of the kingdom of God. "

"Emerging churches are often vigilant in their assertion that what they are about is not merely changing the methods of their faith; they are seeking to be full theological communities. "

On Emergent
So it's more than just about relevance ... read on ... "... providing a space for the conversation is messy and feelings get hurt. But for the many youth pastors who suffer angst over what they are doing -- that it falls short, that there must be more than simply a relevant church service with a large stage, candles, painters going at it, tables, videos, and irreverent banter, Emergent provides hope. ... Emergent provides a place for these travelers to tell their stories, to deconstruct, and yes, eventually to reconstruct their faith. For those who listen carefully and long enough, it is not about Christians losing their faith, but finding it once again as well."

Knight Ridder Piece on the Emerging Church
Stephen is right on this, "I think I read once that when you are deeply involved in something and then the news media covers it, that you see how sometimes major news media miss the nuances." That's why second hand news even if it's in print (and especially if it's on the web) can be misleading ... but we need to rise above these weaknesses and limitations in media with mature discernment. After reading a news piece (or even a statement which troubles us), sending an email or giving a phonecall to clarify first before jumping into conclusions (or before fossilizing our views on others) isn't that hard nowadays isn't it?

Brian McLaren is the real thing...
Ryan Bolger does a good scan of Brian's books and shares his admiration for the man.

There's A Bigger Story: Brian Mclaren
Here's a cool quote, "one of the amazing things about the Bible is that it does not try to say, “Either choose our story or choose the other guys story.” What the Bible does again and again is it outflanks the competing stories and in some ways tries to redeem them."

McLaren: 'Finding the Right Words Is Difficult'
""I don't like the term 'emergent church,' " says the pastor of the non-denominational Cedar Ridge Community Church in the Washington, D.C. area. "It sort of sets up a division like there is this church or that church. I like to talk about an emergent conversation."" Now that's a fantastic opening which I fully say AMEN ! to ...

A Generous, not Suspicious, Orthodoxy
On A lot of people have trouble explaining or understanding what the emergent church is. (*note*: personally I'm still uncomfortable with the term "Emergent Church" here but Brian's reply is pretty consistent with the word "conversation"), "The reason people have trouble is because all of us have trouble with this. There is a lot of diversity of opinion about any issue you could raise. People feel I am being evasive when I say this, but a conversation is the best word for it. In a conversation you have people saying different things about the same thing. A statement, a counter-statement, a question, an answer. Everyone is not just saying the same thing, but they’re dealing with the same set of problems. And what the emergent conversation is about is people dealing with the problems of living in a post-colonial, postmodern, post-enlightenment and maybe post-denominational world."

and more ....

"It’s not just having conversations, but about practitioners who are trying things and talking about what’s working and not working and trying to tell one another about some advice about how to deal with this. So it’s people engaged in church ministry, working with the poor, working internationally, and that sort of thing. So we’re sharing in that practice of theology."

Who Has the Last Word? An Interview with Brian McLaren
This is an engaging interview ...
"Dan Knauss:
Does loving one another as Christians across confessional boundaries mean never discussing or taking seriously our differences, or even acknowledging they exist?

Brian McLaren:
I would never say this. My books are attempts to open up space for respectful dialogue about our differences. In fact, it is our differences that give us a lot to talk about. The key, it seems to me, is that we do so not as enemies but as brothers and sisters … and that we do so not in attack but in mutual edification."

Make the Emergent Founder Bishop!

what lies ahead for us as a denomination? how will the election go? who will be the new Bishop? how shall we play our part - in voicing as well as in voting our concerns. This is an important convention for us for it will mark our entry into a new phase of the corporate church life as Lutherans here in Malaysia. Will it be like the picture .. all clear ahead?

anyway, maybe that's why it was funny when I heard the statement, "make the emergent founder bishop" in the context of whether anything will happen further for as fas as the emergent malaysia conversation is concerned. First, I'm not sure whether the person saying it was refering to me, I suspect he was (anyway, I've never seen myself as a founder ... I just link people who are interested to talk - that's why someone asked me to change my blog title to Linking Park rather than a Garden). Secondly, I don't want to be Bishop ... there are people who are up the coming exciting elections! But, back to the subject matter ... "Emergent" again ... :-P

The word "Emergent" came up the last one week more than usual in some conversations at the camp in Seremban and today at Kairos Office. I think Brian is and has been wise to keep insisting the word "conversation" over movement or "emergent church" ... I had some opportunities at least to comment on how I see the conversation so far in USA and UK and more importantly in Malaysia.

I laughed when someone mentioned about the "emergent" view on a particular subject. Because even as the so called "coordinator" of the conversations here in Malaysia - I said I'm not aware of the view. At this stage, we are opening up space to work on how we could think about theology, spirituality and methodology in close relation to church and mission in a more integrated manner - so I don't see myself and my friends who are part of the emergent conversation (or any theological-spiritual-ministrial conversation) here in Malaysia hurrying too quickly to give an easy answer.

I think that if there is an emergent view or approach ... it's to first pause and re-examine the question, take seriously the context in which the question is asked, refer to historical resources, plunge back into the Gospel of Jesus, consider the way of Jesus, get back to the Scriptural narrative, ... intentionally working this through not just personally but also in community ... and of course, keeping in mind how all this will be for the good of the world - thus the missional dimension. Now that was a mouthful :-)

Today, I had a chance to clarify my own thinking even as I tried to "tell my story" how I landed into the emergent conversation especially with friends in USA and UK specifically. And I think I've been consistent in this right from the beginning that I DO NOT see "Emergent" as a kind of "we here to come to save the day" - church movement. I don't even tell people the church I'm pastoring is a sample of an Emergent Church (as if it's a new brand). With Kia Meng also part of the conversation, in fact much of what we are talking or in "conversation" at our level has already been in discussion perhaps in some academic or theological discussions in the past. So, nothing is new ... but it's new to us and we're enjoying it and find it helpful :-)

Being part of this "conversation" no doubt has helped me see things clearer as far as what's important to me personally, and corporately as a church, and it's helped me think in more integrated terms. I find myself also enriched by the interaction - sharpened in some aspects and softened in other aspects especially when I'm quick to make judgement. So, I do find some relation there to how I serve and lead and wrestle with all things church and mission in my specific context.

and in addition to that ... haging around those in the "conversation" helps me to intentionally keep the rhythm of how theology, spirituality, and ministry dances in my journey.

So as far as I know, for those who are looking for an "emergent" church (as a kind of special brand) in Malaysia I think will be disappointed. But, if you are looking for a bunch of freinds who enjoy engaging in theological reflection which is not divorced from ethical and ministry realities and hoping to do all this with an authentic spirituality ... then, I think and I hope they would find that in the so called "emergent conversation"-Malaysian style. And if you are interested ... let me know.

Oh yeah ... notice ... that I have not been mentioned "postmodern" until now :-). I can start with "postcolonial":-P ... but then ... we're all still in the beginning stages of seeing how this journey can be a source of encouragement for those who want be a bit more conscious in our thinking and intentional in our efforts and more integrated in our approach. I think there is a road ahead ... more details after the elections ...

Introducing : The Postmodern Postmortem

My good friend Sherman has been blogging away until I need to wait for Monday to catch up and engage in conversation with him from my side ... this series of blogs has been insightful. I'll pick out some statements that jump out for me .. read the rest for yourself. I hope to "interact" with him more in the coming days ... at least Sunday evening ...this "post-colonial" approach/frame looks like a good path to go my smarter friend (you can put up the doggie pictures as intervals!) ...

*UPDATE: for a condensed version check The Postmodern Postmortem (An Asian Construction of a Generous Orthodoxy)*

The Postmodern Postmortem (Part 1)
"So there is much conversation taking place in matters pertaining to postmodernity and its host of variant expressions. But what does this mean for us, people of Asia? Do we have a postmodernity of which to speak? My take on this issue is that we have no postmodernity.

In the first place, we possess no firsthand historical reality of the Enlightenment, and therefore, no modernity. The modernity we do have is that which has been swept onto our shores as a result of the colonial era. What we have is, as it were, the debris of modernity. And even so, this debris has mutated over the past decades as it took root in the local context. And yes, the onus is upon Asian Christians to delineate our own understanding of our local modernities..."

The Postmodern Postmortem (Part 2)
"... The colonial period lasted for several centuries, duringwhich the economic, political and religious impact on local soil constituted the defining reference points for the colonised locals. As was to be expected, Western Christianity took root in the same manner. And thus was the commencement of organised Christianity on local ground in the replicated manner of the traditional Western ecclesiastical life. It was no surprise that after a prolonged period of its existence, the people of the land could not identify with Western Christianity. This is not to say that the Church failed to grow. Far from it, many were drawn to the gospel; but together with that, they were also obligated to embrace the cultural imperatives of the imperialists. Also, there were many others who declined to accept “the faith of the white man”. .."

The Postmodern Postmortem (Part 3)
"... am not talking about a simple repackaging of the Western gospel to give it an Asian face. If theology is the language of the Christian community, then Western theology (with all its rationally constructed categories) is the language of the Western Christian community. If so, I am in effect proposing the construction of a theological language that emerges from the Asian Christian community..."

The Postmodern Postmortem (Part 4)
"... I cannot emphasise enough the case for which I am arguing above – that our struggle is a post-colonial one, and not a postmodern one. In my mind, even a marginal deviation from this emphasis poses the unfortunate prospect of a digression in my efforts. And because our struggle is not postmodernity but post-colonialism, we are not herein reckoning with the tension between theological liberalism and theological orthodoxy as is the case in the West. In fact, such an insignificantly marginal segment of the Christian community here is theologically unorthodox that their presence poses almost no concern to the rest of the community. Our battle is, however, against the unthinking Evangelical imperialism which suffocates the prospect of authentic expression in our Asian Christianity. It locks theology up within the confines of Western cultural realities. This cultural imperialism, as I have mentioned, has shifted from high-culture imperialism to low-culture imperialism. We are therefore endeavouring to emerge with a “generous orthodoxy” of another kind..."

The Postmodern Postmortem (Part 5)
"... Perhaps attempting to develop new Asian theological categories does not necessitate a rejection of Western theological categories after all. It just requires that I move beyond such familiar categories. Just because I seek to move beyond Western theological categories does not mean that I am herein rejecting the propositional and confessional claims of Western Christianity...."

Clearer ...

Here's a progression of "Haze-related" pictures from yesterday morning, to yesterday evening, to this morning which is much clearer and better :-) Both Gareth and I are feeling much better too ... he still with a slight cough, my headaches gone and no longer sneezing ...

Perhaps I could relate this a little to my reading of some "stirrings" that surround the writings of Brian McLaren, especially when i read some blogs or comments even by more "heavy weight" Christian personalities. Again and again I found it strange that why is it that I don't see what they see especially at some point a claim that Brian has "abandoned the Gospel"? Ok .. perhaps I'm biased, or I could be blinded ... but then, if we are honest .. maybe just maybe he's really being misunderstood ...

So, that's why I appreciated Brian's Becoming Convergent Series Part 1, part 2 and part 3 (here's all thre combined pdf form). Hopefully, it gives most people who may have not read his writings in full (especially his earlier two excellent books on church, and finding faith), or bits and pieces here (usually without sufficient context), or just what they get online (in article form) to get a "clearer" picture as opposed to a "fictional" or "straw man" character from our imagination or others. Of course, some may still hold on to their conclusions and/or opinions. That's just reality.

I've been very slow to be drawn into this matter. This is partly to avoid abusive comments - I must admit I got shocked and tired by what went on the emergent-us blog. I further didn't want to be sucked into tiring debates which I see little relevance for us here. And this is definately not about whether one agrees with all the details of his writings ... and not whether one agrees with his critics in total ... which nowadays has become quite a "hazy" situation.

As far as I'm concerned, I'll just echo Scot McKNight's Thank You Brian --> "All I want to say is this. Brian, I am grateful for what you have done to me and for Evangelicalism. I see your work to be rhetorical wake-up for Evangelicals to start thinking about how to become a missional community for the world in which we live. Even when I disagree with you, I am glad you have brought up the issues you raise." and John Fyre's Getting to Know Brian McLaren --> "I am grateful that Brian McLaren took the time to tell his story. I consider Brian a pastoral artist; a creative, story-telling evangelist who is passionate about the "good news" of Jesus Christ truly sounding like good news to the ever-increasing postmodern West.".

I think at least in Malaysia we can learn from someone like Brian and I would also add learn from people like Scott and John (in their generous responses). Of course, we can learn from those who disagree with them or us. Too often, we are tempted to operate with a "guilt by association" mentality which makes situations even more "hazy". And this is the case not just about Brian McLaren or whatever that's linked with "emergent" (which for me is very much still a "conversation" first and foremost!) ... we need to move beyond face-less (often devoid of relationships) kind of engagements. In short, are we growing up as Christians in the way we handle theological conversations/investigations or more immediately pastoral or ministry situations as a group of post-colonial Malaysian Christians?

In addition to the above, we still wrestle with "uncritically" jumping on the latest "trendy bandwagon" whether it's so called church growth or revival-promised movement or we usually in fear or combate mode (depending) retreat into a "fortress" mentality with our so called perceived "safety modes" (or "defensive" postures) and miss the beautiful scenary and open possibilities of doing our own contextual, creative and constructive work of thinking, being and doing. Is there risk involved? Sure! Are there dangers? No doubt about it. What about the opportunities? Just open your eyes to see, and ears to hear ... but all our endeavour aren't just individual exercises - there's more to just our individual questioning or search.

I prayed for rain and wind during these past few hazy days - especially when it became hazardous. Yesterday morning it rained a little - I jumped for joy, then paused when it stopped raining. Later, I could feel the wind blow gently and took some photos of trees swaying a little ... there was hope. I'm reminded of two signicant metaphors for the Spirit in Scriptures - rain and wind. Perhaps in days like this ... we can have a greater confidence and trust in the work of the Spirit guiding us in community through immersing ourselves in God's story in scripture (and understanding ourselves backward in history) - to live forward increasingly clearer day by day in our present day context - surely for the benefit of our worlds and the world. That's my prayer especially for those of us here in Malaysian church and of course, beyond.

Emergent Latest ...

Review Written by Paul Harrison
The last two reviews in this amazon page really brings a further twist to this story ... (via Dashhouse)
"What I can say about McLaren and what he taught of the past few days is that he believes in the authrotiy of Scriptures and that they are true. Our interpretations, however, may not always be. A woman asked, "How is someone saved or born again?" McLaren answered, "Through grace, by faith, plus nothing." He gave a clear presentation of the trinity, a clear presentation of the deity and lordship of Jesus and the importance of being His disciple as opposed to being just a "convert."

He spoke cleary against relativism and defended the concept of truth being known, and I can honestly say I didn't get one red flag from anything he taught in those six hours. His position on homosexuality was that it is not accepted as a biblically valid lifestyle, but that we are still to love and embrace them in community with us. His position on "belonging before believing" was clearly that we are inviting people to follow Christ and know Him by doing what he says. There is a distinct difference between those who are saved and those who are not yet, but the seekers are invited to walk in the way of Christ with us to see that He is Truth. They can then receive Him and make Him Lord. He by no means taught that people are saved by following Jesus as a guru, but must make a confession to receive Him. "

Reviews Written by B. Mclaren
A statement like this, "
I didn't want Dr. Carson to be misrepresented by the other review on this page." has made me wonder whether others have offered Brian the same grace ... "straw men" are easier to get upset with ... "real men" now that's a different matter. "Straw men" don't post reviews on other people's reviews. Fascinating development :-)

D.A. Carson and the Australians
I found it helpful to see how the "dialogue" in the comments progressed (my contributions were minimal)... there's REALLY a lot of dynamism in this conversation.

The Emerging Church, Part One
The Emerging Church, Part Two
Although this is more "focused" on the USA context, it's a good and useful intro to the subject matter, what are the issues raised, the concerns that have emerged, the criticisms, and the hints of the way forward ... The interview transcripts are really the gems in these two pieces.

I hope to "enter into conversation" with some of the content the next few days ... I'm not much into offering "critique" (though there's a place for that), I found that I enjoy engaging in "conversation" what energizes me more :-)

Responses to Recent Criticisms
the link starts with saying, "Dr. D. A. Carson has written a critical review of emergent, and of my work in particular. Dr. Al Mohler and others have praised and quoted Carson's book in reviews and articles of their own. Unfortunately, in a number of ways their reviews misrepresent and misjudge my writings, thinking, and beliefs - and those of my friends." How do we respond when another person considers themselves being misrepresented and misjudged? This does not mean there can be no disagreement but how can we better "represent another" even if we disagree? In more than 40 email exchanges with a friend on a number of important issues of faith, theology and ministry in the Malaysian context ... I'm learning how this is ACTUALLY possible ...

Rick's plan to study the "emerging church"
wow! there's someone actually having a Sabbathical to do this? Richard Laribee has a blog that describes his thoughts as he visits "emerging churches" (I was really delighted to stumble on to his blog and thoughts).The following comments struck me ... if I replace the words "postmodern world" with "the context we live in today" or "21st century Malaysia" it's still applicable. This is basic "missionary" thinking.
" I think the question at hand is not about "postmodern Christianity." Christianity should not be considered ancient, medieval, modern, or postmodern. God became human and spoke with a Galilean accent, ate Galilean cooking, sang Galilean songs, danced Galilean dances, and laughed at Galilean jokes. The incarnation was within a particular historical and cultural context. But never have I thought that to "become like Christ" was to become Galilean. So I think it is with the Church and culture. The medieval Church would live and serve within a medieval world, clothed in medieval clothing and speaking with a medieval accent. Particularization requires contextualization. But to lose its medievalness when it modernized was not intrinsically a loss of anything eternal or essential. Always we wrestle with what is essential and what is coincidental. Always we will live and move within a culture, but it is in God that we live and move and have our being. It is not readily apparent which is which. So the question is not about how Christianity will become postmodern or resist postmodernism, but rather about how Christianity will best flourish and minister within the postmodern world."

Post conference thoughts from Singapore & Malaysia

I managed to take this picture while sitting on the bus to cross the causeway from Singapore to Malaysia. It's interesting for me at least to note how different Singapore and Malaysia is even though we are so close as neighbouring countries.

It's interesting to read the post pomo youth ministry conference responses from the blogs and to see what people from either Singapore or Malaysia got from Tony & Dan's sessions.

I'll just pick some quotes (avoiding any comments)

and now 2 posts from Singapore ... I think both are pastors ...
- Postmodern Youth Ministry Conference
"The correct answer is correct, and an incorrect answer is incorrect, whether we believe it or not. The actual truth is true, even if not one person anywhere believes it is true. If an objective reality stands behind life, that reality defines the way the world functions. Attempt to bypass this reality should carry the surgeon general's warning: "Ignoring truth is hazardous to your life and sanity." I do not want to drive across a bridge designed by an engineer who believed the numbers in the structural stress models are relative truths. Things follow rules, or an authority structure. Chemical element do not change the way they interact without good reason. It works because we can trust in the absolute authority of laws governing reality. Absolute truth empowers us. Once we learn what the truth is as well as its structure of authority, we can move out confidently, trusting in the authority structure that governs life. Functioning in a world without absolute truth and the authority behind it would be hideous experience. We could then trust nothing. We must understand that truth matters and that ultimate truth makes all the difference in a person's life."

- Postmodern Youth Ministry
" ... To sum up on Tony, I felt he is, indeed, a very well-read and passionate person who is deeply convicted in his postmodern theology of youth ministry. I actually wished he had more time to speak more on the issues at greater length. I think in its brevity, he may have rushed past the important thought-process of grappling with postmodernism and jumped too quicly to the conclusion and "answer" of the matter, i.e. that we are to rejoice that our Christian God is greater than any modern theories or prepositional truths about HIM. To be fair, the spectrum in PM (Postmodernism) is pretty wide and i had actually secretly wanted him to speak more on the French philosphers and the other Big names (Nietzche, Sartre, or even Kierkegaard, whom many believed to be the father of postmodernism, a brillant and progressive Danish theologian and philosopher) who had influenced this "fad" today.

... i really like Dan's sessions very much, just like almost everyone did at the conference, for he provided us what we wanted to hear all along, the how of postmodern youth ministry. But what impressed me most about Dan was not his hair nor his experiences in emerging churches, it was his humility which caught my attention the most. Maybe it's his shyness but I think beneath that shyness hid a true humility of a simple and faithful Christian servant. I remembered him in his first session, without any presumption of our culture, repeatedly reminding us that his culture is different from ours, and we should contextualise them to our needs accordingly."

and some posts from my friend Chris from Malaysia
Impressions from YS Post Modern Conf. - Singapore
"I think the discussion on post modernity does not end here. Each of us must have a firm grip of our culture, be deeply immerse in the Scripture and workout what all these means and how they interrelate in our present time."

Contextualization
"It would not be accurate to say that post modernity does not affect the east. In recent years, phenomenon such as globalisation, the influence of media, the growing use of internet has made the East share the many struggles that exist in the West. For Malaysian, you only have to take a look at a local video called ‘Sepet’ to understand this behaviour.

I believe, the group that is mostly affected by a new world where there is the merging of various ideas, cultures and traditions are the youths. I have noticed certain new ‘mind-set’ developing in the lives of our youths. The difference between the youth in the east and those in the west: the content of their behaviour. The youths in the west are reacting, responding to their culture, where else in the east youths are being influenced and imitating the belief & practices of the west."

I've already scribbled some thoughts on ...
- my first impressions on the conference
- how the word "Glocalization" caught my attention
- the importance of asking basic questions on "the kind of atmosphere" (cultural climate) we are living in
- a needed corrective on how we worship corporately
- it's not just about information but moments for transformation
- so how do we embrace the messiness of our world and move beyond a mere yes/no & black/white response

Personally, I felt it was good finally to have a chance for our friends from USA to interact with us here ... in South East Asia ... a bonus for me also is how we in Malaysia and our friends in Singapore will be working out our answers in the midst of the messiness and massive changes in our world.

Beam me up Scotty ... Part 2

The name Scott McKnight turned up on my conversation with a Malaysian NT scholar today ... in matters regarding New testament studies and also the Emergent conversation while extended time reflecting on our own Malaysian context together. (I really find times like this so stimulating and motivating)

I thought it will be nice to continue following Scott's recent "POST" posts :-) which actually resonates with a lot of what I've been thinking about the past 5 years ... but he articulates it so well ... I just try to "sing in harmony" after his insights and echo some of my own impulses.

"Post" as in Post-Evangelical
"I believe this to be the case for many within the Emerging movement, some use "post" Evangelical for those who are transcending the foundations upon which, or the intellectual ground upon which, the distinction between "liberal" and "fundamentalist/evangelical" was founded. In other words, they see the possibility of a Christian faith that is neither liberal nor fundamentalist/evangelical, but which takes from both expression, and moves on. In this sense, it adheres to an articulation of the faith that takes as its primary conversation partner the Bible as Word of God but which knows that in this day the expression of the faith will no longer be what it was in the days when liberalism and fundamentalism/evangelicalism held sway."
I've been interacting with some not just through books but in person and find this expression of faith refreshing. The first time I actually heard of the term "post-evangelical" was actually through Rober Brow in his article Evangelical or Post-Evangelical and David Tomlinson.

Post-Certianty
"what the Emergent Christian denies is not that there is truth but that our articulation of that truth is always limited. Truth is personal and therefore our knowledge of God as Person in Jesus Christ through the Spirit and the Church limits our grasp until the Eschaton. And, to compound the whole discussion, genuine truth is the story of God make known to us through Christ and the Spirit in the community where that story is performed in such a manner that humans can grasp the true story of the true gospel."
Accepting one's limitation to me is a strength rather than weakness ... and isn't that just being plain honest!? (this is definately not about fake humility... just to sound subdued or humble...)

The Post-Evangelical "Crisis"
"If we wish to be advocates for our faith, we have a much better chance of being such if we find ourselves in a story that emerges from a community where the gospel is performed and lived out in such a way that questions are asked and welcomed and responded to with integrity and humility."
So, the immediate response to "crisis" is not necessarily packaged answers but actually being connected to a "community" where the questions that arose from the "crisis" can be worked out ... amongst fellow pilgrims along the journey of faith.

Post Meta-narrative?
"the Christian faith or following Jesus, whichever linguistic turn you prefer, is a meta-narrative. But it is not a modernist meta-narrative that is the result of scientific research, objectivist analysis, and indubitable certainties. Nor is it a postmodernist construction, but a "proper confidence" in the work of God in and through Jesus Christ who invites each of us to walk into the story of God and become a character in God's story in this world."
Now this is getting more sophisticated than some would like it to be ... but then again just because it is doesn't mean it's not significant ... I'm happy to be walk into the story of God ... I find myself growing in confidence these days :-)

No Easy Answers ...

(Just for those who think I'm still in Singapore ... I'm not. I came back last Saturday evening. All these thoughts are slightly delayed *smile* ... there's so much in my "being" ... now.)

Back to this post ... Yes folks Tony Jones actually did speak from the Bible .. the Gospel of Luke specifically chapter 20 verses 20-26.

After helping us re-enter the narrative with the historical context highlighing the differences between the pharisees and herodians during Jesus tiime, and then helping us see question they posed to Jesus about taxes was kind of "a sneaky question" to trap Jesus. I loved the way Tony helped me see how Jesus answer breaks the "bi-polarity" of the situation given to him. So on one hand, Jesus is not trapped .. on the other hand Jesus points beyond the image of the coin which displays Caesar to the Creator who actually owns all things. Good stuff ..

Here are some phrases I scribbled down ... in the context of the message and how all this relates to our world today .. these are not word for word from Tony but what I caught and perhaps paraphrased .. (Tony if you are reading this please make the necessary amendments!)

There are no easy answers (that's the bad news) ... even in the Bible

Truth is a person ... Jesus!

this rings very close to my weekend... after a fun and stimulating time in Singapore. I was shocked to come home finding out that Gareth was admitted to hospital for an Asthma attack (I wasn't able to be contacted because I didn't have a roaming line). I felt terrible as a Father who wasn't there for my son, wife and family during this emergency. thankfully, he's better now and discharged by the time I cam back on saturday. There is also in the midst of the backdrop of the bombing in London where many of us are also shocked again by such acts of destruction.. so, life is full of ambiguity & ambivalence ...

and there are no easy answers .. we are often tempted to look at life very simplistically ... we are often afraid of the greys .. and prefer clear cut black and white solutions ... but life is messy. Acknowedging the reality of no EASY answers doesn't mean there is NO answers .. it's an honest call for us to discover BETTER ones ... for that to happen we would need to allow fresh questions to surface and be in community with Jesus and conversation with others in humility trusting in the Spirt to DISCOVER the answers. And even without neat and tidy answers we live on ... refining them along the way!

Memorable Extras

In conferences it's easy to be in a state where it's a lot of input whether in theology (teaching) or methodology (training) - it's a breath of fresh air when Dan asked us to write down names of people whom we know who are not yet followers of Christ on these post-it notes and then one by one stick them on the stage area. For many of us coming out more than 3 names (especially as paid-staff in churches) is a challenge ... then we need to ask what are we actually doing. This act was so so necessary to keep all we're discussing in perspective and priority.

I really liked the idea of using the clay and forming our own mini-sculpture based on one of the beatitudes (Matthew 5) - during the session while listening to the talk. At the end, one by one we brought our "expressions" to the stage. Lots of creativity ... not just creativity .. but creativity connecting with a truth expressed in the texts.

I liked Marko's games with 5000 points even for each victory :-) and his energizers are really workable after lunch to wake us up! He teached me some "fist" greeting thing ... which is actually pretty alien to me but it was fun! I'm growing to accept (even in the midst of my cheekiness) I'm actually VERY serious!

One thing that struck me is when Tony said how they are increasingly growing uncomfortable as being seen as the ones with the answers & authority (especially as the ones holding the mic) - this Q & A session was meant to model "conversation" and "interaction" - in short mutuality in learning along this journey in our respective contexts and together. It was nice to see how each of them responded to the questions - seeing how they embody and express what they are wrestling with ...

In my limited experience I've learnt to "engage" those who present talks or ideas at two levels ... the more formal presentation level and my prefered personal conversational level - I thoroughly enjoyed both with these guys and of course, I found the "conversations" at a personal level tremendously stimulating (even more than the formal sessions). Understanding the personal narratives of each person behind the words and ideas presented allows me to "understand" better and re-look at what's "generating" those words and thoughts from my newly connected friends ...

Though this was a primarily meant for Singapore conference ... we Malaysians took the chance to come and see what's going on ... and I guess, some of us are surprised as well as not so suprised who turned up. I also was delighted to meet a Malaysian teaching in Singapore and will be doing more research work on South East Asian cultural & thought forms historical development - sounds great hope to see more Malaysians rising up to help us understand our socio-political-cultural-religous climate ... as for the rest of us mere mortals trying to serve Jesus with our own gifts ... I hope we Malaysians will seriously work constructively - beyond individually but also together. One of Tony's insights stuck with me ... and it's about immersing ourselves in the Gospel in community to discover the answers for each concerns that we face.

Beam me up Scotty ... Part 1

Scott McKnight has been really energized in putting up loads of "POST" posts ... which are helpful. Somehow, I find these posts affirming and beams me up ... beyond mere polarities or misunderstandings set by others or even myself.

A Post on "post-" in the Emerging conversation
yes ... it's not about being "anti" and his comment on "family" is spot on (at least for me) I found Scott's use of the "baton" imagery an interesting "complement" to our discussion on 2nd Gen Christians ...

The Foundation of being "Post"
Scott says, "The "post" in the "post"modern and the Emerging movement among Christians all over the world is a "post" that says they want to get beyond a kind of evangelicalism that is rooted and shaped by and characterized by "truth claims" to a kind of Christianity that moves beyond "truth claims" to "truth proclaims." A kind of Christian faith that is centrally a kind of Christian life, a kind of Christian gospel that is proclaimed by performance. A kind of Christian faith that sees its focus in the mission to incarnate and embody and perform the gospel in the local community because the call of Jesus, found eloquently in the Sermon on the Mount, is to "be" a people." I say yes to all that and the part about church!

The Goal of the "post"
Check out stuff like - "teleological" thinking - a discovery in newness of an old category - perichoretic love - Doing church means a community absorbed with kingdom vision

Beyond speaking & singing ...

one thing I like about Dan Kimball is that he's not here to give us a bag of tricks in his sessions so we can go back and say "Wah! Lah! kazoom ... let there be creative worship!". If that's what we got from him sessions (i.e. just tricks and techniques) then I think we have missed the whole learning that was intended.

I also think there's also a sense of insecurity we can leave behind when we begin to introduce richer variety of expressions beyond spoken words and songs sung (that is the trademark of almost all of today's worship in churches even here in Malaysia). It's beyond words and song, not no more words and no more music ... it's not just about feelings and experiences and tastes and all that.

it's about how we can worship corporately with all the gifts of communication/expression given us .. and bringing not just a balance but actually also a corrective in especially affirming the non-verbal as aspects of "doing theology" or "reflective learning" - if it's just a gimmick sure we miss the point .. but if it's a gateway to encounter God and be in touch with truths that transform us ... now that's a totally different matter.

I found it amusing how as a "Lutheran" observing Dan who's from a more Bible church evangelical background appreciate the liturgy, asking the whys behind the order of worship, and also embracing ancient practices that we mainliners often chuck away. It's like I felt "Hey! to him he sees treasures for worship ... why did we see it as trash to throw away? Sorry Lord! sorry those who've gone before us. Some repentence of pride is appropriate here"

But then, it's not just blindly picking and choosing ... it's first going back to the practice, then the history and deeper into the meaning (i.e. theology) then coming back to the surface into our ongoing story today and practices here and now. Fascinating.

One thing for sure ... there's more to Dan then just practical tips.
Read this article From Methodology to Theology: Become Worshiping Communities of Missional Theologians we may not be professional theologians in the university or seminary ... but we are missional theologians in our local churches and ministries! I'm happy to see one in practice in the person of Dan and hope to see more ...

Atmosphere

In many ways I suspect that most of the participants would find Dan Kimball's session on "Postmodernism: how it impacts youth ministry and youth leaders" easier to follow. :-) perhaps it's the way we are educated most of us find dealing with more "abstract concepts" harder to digest, we tend to prefer the concrete and the visual. And Dan played his part well in doing this.

One thing I appreciated is that being very well aware of such a "different" context he's coming from (i.e. USA) he communicates his oresentation with an inherently dialogical approach - not so much we did a Q & A (which in this session perhaps was too early) but more in his way of speaking and trying to facilitate our thoughts in the process.

I found his little line under the question "What is Postmodernism?" quite cheeky and yet thoughtful ... i.e. a word that is misunderstood, misused, feared, embraced, talked about, ignored, cool to use and uncool to use.

I think he accurately paints the scene on how ordinary folk in the church or even leaders use the term. I've heard of "postmodernism" seen as the big bad enemy we should resist and I've also heard of "postmodernism" as the latest "trend" in youth and young adult ministry. Both I think are unhelpful.

What for me I get is this ... that at least at the more"popular" and "grass-root" level in ministry especially in local churches we talk about culture again .. not just culture as in our Chinese and/or Indian culture, but also a more "dynamic view" of culture/s in Malaysia that are at work. another way of putting it is "How do we view the world we live in?"

So often, Christians in Malaysia are tempted to jump to easily on the latest bandwagon (from the latest church growth technique to even the latest philosophy) without first considering the "climate" in which gave birth to the specific solution offered by the above. And then second step of seriously considering our climate and in Dan's word I picked up our "Atmosphere".

I like the question Dan posed to us ... adapted from the questions he asked in his context of Santa Cruz USA.

What kind of Atmosphere do we have in Singapore-Malaysia?
What values and spiritual beliefs are shaping how youth think
and view the world?
How is Christianity seen?"

And this can be done at a more micro level even in my own small group. as well as the local congregation and wider Malaysian church scene.

Considering what are the dominant religious faiths? how do we learn values and beliefs? what are our morals and ethics? most of us think these are questions for scholars when it's actually questions that need to be grappled with ourselves too at all levels perhaps with different vocabulary!

I read a news paper report (trying to find a link) and even though we may pride our so called "asian values" according to the survey most kids are more interested in money, the latest gadgets and trends and their jobs more than relationships, personal learning and social justice. The report did talk about their desire for world peace though.

I was talking with a youth yesterday and he said he wanted to leave his country because people are just working to death here. And he wants to go to a place like New Zealand. I found our conversation very enlightening.

So, on one hand .. I need to read up .. on the other, I need to just ask questions and listen. And somehow in that process come to an understanding of where people are at and the kind of atmosphere we are living in.

"Glocalization" & more

I found Tony's starting point to invite us to think about our current 21st century context helpful during the Youth Ministry in a Globalized world talk. Globalization is a big word but with some unpacking and what he terms as a more sophisticated (for me more indepth) view of it we also see the flip side of "Glocalization" a kind of reverse effect of what is commonly perceived as "western cultural imperialism" (e.g. Mcdonaldization) to the creation of the possibility of the "local" being more "global" (e.g. even Mcdonalds has local dishes).

And this excited me because now ... in many ways, people like us here in Malaysia for example has "space" or a "chance" to allow our voice to be heard, our food to be tasted by others, our concerns to be presented. And from a theological and ministry perspective not only become aware or even influenced by "western developments" but actually now also rise up to "contribute" and play a more significant role in the "Global" development of thinking, doing and living of the Christian faith ...

when Tony walked through a simple timeline for western philosophy I was thinking about eastern philosophy and how confucianism, taoism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam. etc played their role in the shaping of our mindsets here and even how colonialism and modernism/secularism has affected us. I've read some stuff still need to work on my "work in progress" interpretive framework.

And putting these two side by side is a fascinating exercise and allows for some fertile ground for interaction. And indeed the gospel is unique in how the gospel incarnates into different cultures, adopts and adapts, or even transform or rejects a variety of aspects and yet has a constant about it - in Christ, the movement and leading of the Spirit and the mystery of the creator!

It's interesting to see how "postive" aspects of the discussion on "postmodernism" actually opens up one to reconsider how often our thinking is less Biblical and relational than we perceive it to be ... and can actually bring one to appreciate the gospel better and in my view more faithful to we are called to interact with the person of Jesus here and now especially in community.

most of us have a simplistic view of "postmodernism" and I found Tony opening up my mind further on a more "sophisticated" view of "postmodernism". of course, with qualifiers through out that we need to think through how all this applies to Asia etc. But, painting it as a big monster we need to battle to me is not very helpful. perhaps it depends how this issue is discussed ... my introduction to the word five years ago was more positive than negative thus I have less "jitters" when I'm in the discussion today. I do recognize the more radical (or even destructive) aspects of it (e.g. nihilism,absolute relativism *who actually REALLY believes this?*, etc) ... but then that seems to be always the case in any philosophy or religion or any pursuit of knowledge. I recall hearing critiques on Enlightenment and Modernism during seminary days that highlighted the dangers of rationalism but that didn't make me not appreciate the role of reason. So, I think we can at least become less alarmist and have confidence in our ability especially in personal humility and community to work through our thinking, doing and living ... again together!

Emergent in Singapore?!

technically this was not a "Emergent Conference" , it was promoted as "Postmodern Youth Ministry Conference" organized by the Board of Youth Ministry, Chinese Annual Conference. We met gathered at the Bukit Panjang Methodist Church which had an interesting neighbor the Salvation Army .. cool building next door that looks like a ship!

It was not a "big" conference ... a substantial group turned up. I was delightfully surprised to see a small group of us Malaysians that were present. I overheard quite a variety of churches represented. And it was good to connect with some people whom I've heard from a distance ... strange place to meet but I'm grateful we did connect.

Rev. Poh is the risk taker, forward looking, humble man who initiated this event and made it possible ... I REALLY appreciate his efforts that many of us could be blessed by a "space" and "time" and "environement" where we could wrestle with questions perhaps sparked by our involvement with youth and young adults but actually has wider concerns of theology, philosophy and culture that needs the hard work of asking "questions" (something we here in Malaysia or perhaps even Singapore are less prone to do because of busyness or bombardment by quick-fix-knee-jerk-reactionary answers)

From a Youth Ministry Conference point of view this is one of the best (and definately meaty and sensitive) ones I've ever been to ... Thanks for the good work "the Rev." (we affectionaly call him*grin*!)

This is the first time I'm meeting Marko and he's also very instrumental in bringing the next two guys whom I'm surprised that we could meet so soon. he's indeed as how the Sharps (whom visited Malaysia recently) described him to me - a very engaging person. I loved the question game he played after lunch which was not only fun but also helped us to know him and the speakers better.

So, perhaps it wasn't an "Emergent Conference" technically, but for me it was relationally :-) because finally I could meet my conversation partner who's the named recently as the EmergentUSA coordinator Tony Jones (sitting on the left) whom I read his blog and I think some articles before I read any books written by him (Fresh with an interview with Next Wave Ezine).

This is the more than 5th time I'm meeting someone I've just known from a distance from blogs and some emails. And it's again amazing how we just "connected" immediately and just engaged in conversation so easily. He's indeed smart and intelligient as many have said he is. There's loads of energy and deeply thought through insights flowing out from him. One very memorable impression I found was his closing "benediction"-filled prayer at the end of today's session demonstrated a very pastoral side of him not so frequently mentioned so far. Tony, if you managed to read this before you leave Singapore. You are right I managed to "blog" about today tonight!

The other person commonly associated with the conversation Dan Kimball (standing on the right) one whom I read his book before I read his blog - who's really got not just stylish hair but what really matters is he's got this gentleness about him that invites the people to "journey" and "process" his thoughts and reflections with him.

Both of them are so different ... but it was nice to see how individually and together they created a "space" for us to "think through" our own context and have a fresh appreciation of the Gospel. I really appreciated the genuine desire for dialogue, conversations, mutual learning demonstrated in the main sessions and personal interactions. For people like me who've eavesdropped for all these years and also participated in some way in the "emergent" & "emerging church" conversation. It was great to do this "Live" with the guys!

As for Marko and Poh - I feel we need to appreciate people like them who often work behind the scenes to make the connections and make events like these possible. If this is how partnership can look like ... there's great hope for the future .. together ...

EM04 Crunchy Questions

*Note: sorry for the delayed report and reflection*

In the last Emergent Malaysia "Open" Meeting we decided to use the issue of "2nd Generation Christians" as a starting point for discussion. This matter was raised in one of our threads in the Yahoogroup.

So, I pulled out some ideas from this paragraph I found to describe an upcoming plenary session on "Building 2nd Generation Christian Youths" from an upcoming Youth consultation that I'll go as a participant. It says,

"The first generation of Christian youth of the yesteryears has become parents with teenage children today. This is an emerging generation that has passed through our Sunday Schools into our Youth Fellowships. But, are we passing the baton of Christian faith to them effectively? And, is the emerging generation of young people taking up this baton of faith personally? Is this the responsibility of the family or the church?"

one thing I noticed during the meeting, even though talking about "2nd Generation" Christians was the starting point ... many questions, issues and/or even reframing how we ask the questions arose - and they arose around the lens of "Church" (so not just about the youth specifically), the nature of "Mission" (it's not just about fancy methods), even Theology (passing down the faith or recontextualizing the faith), etc.

I thought I'll just try to capture some of the concerns I heard in the form of "Questions" in random and no particular order

- What are the models available for 2nd generation Christians? whether individual examples of how one grows into faith? how about models of "Christianity" or churches that are unseen or not popular but seriously engaging in nurturing faith in the long run?

Some questions to crunch for now ... we'll see whether we can chew on some meat later in another post ... please feel free to comment and put your thoughts down .. especially if you are a 2nd or 3rd or more ... generation Christian.

EM04 Vegetarian Appetizer

I'm very thankful that the Emergent Malaysia "Open" Meeting went well with its load of surprises here and there with lots of food for thought as well as areas that causes me to think deeper (more on this later) :-) I'm amazed that this is actually our fourth time we've organized this kind of meeting.

I decided to start off with a more vegetarian approach and leave the meat for later. If you can't wait then you could check out Al's post You Ain't What You Eat and some thoughts here from from Ryan (a visiting friend who's actually been to emergent conventions)

We had a diverse group ... apart from Malaysians, we had friends from Ireland, USA, Korea & Japan giving this meeting quite an unexpected enriched international flavor. Of course, we were also very different as far as church background and where we are at along our journey at this point.

One thing was constant - based on how we introduced ourselves - we came because of a relationship with another person present. Our connecting point first and foremost is RELATIONAL first before some curiosity about what this "Emergent conversation" is all about as well as mutual concerns about being & doing church in Malaysia & beyond.

We had some good food to start off ... some new connections formed, old connections rejuvenated, small talk and more in depth intros took place.

After food we jumped straight into 5 small groups to have some "conversations" revolving around the whole issue of "2nd Generation Christians". Later, summaries & highlights of the discussions were shared with all. I was a free agent to move in and out of the five groups to get a general feel of where the "conversations" were going. MISSIONAL & CHURCH-related concerns came up all over the place.

I cheekily used some questions and assumptions of a paragraph from an upcoming Youth consultation I'll be going to ... and was not suprised as well as surprised on how different people perceive the images and issues revolving around the topic of "2nd(or 3rd or 4th) Generation Christians"

as usual, there was always interesting post-meeting conversations ... and some managed to finish off the Durians!

Postmodern Youth Ministry Conference

Special Thanks to Rev. Poh and those at the Board of Youth Ministry Chinese Annual Conference (The Methodist Church in Singapore) for making this event possible.

Date: 7-8 July (Thurs- Fri), 2005
(please contact Rev Poh --> heowlee.poh@methodist.org.sg for more info)

Tony Jones (author of Postmodern Youth Ministry) and Dan Kimball (author of the Emerging Church) will be the main speakers.

It's side by side the CORE Part 3 Certification Training by Youth Specialities with Mark Oestreicher.. which is on 9 July, Saturday.

I think I should be able to make it for the Pomo Youth Ministry Conference (now working on funds) and have some "conversations" with the guys!

Here's the conference topics I saw in the brochure:

- Youth Ministry in a Globlized World
- How Postmodern Culture Shapes Youth and Youth Ministry
- Designing Multi-sensory Worship gatherings
- Moving Worship from performance and celebrity to participation and community
- Developing a theology of pop culture
- The recovery of ancient practices in youth ministry
- Starting an emerging worship gathering in an existing church
- Dialog session with the team

Of course, my main reason for going down is to connect face to face with the guys who are part of emergentUSA and engage in more indepth conversation - this is a good chance for some one like me from Asia to have some fun with my American friends as far as all things "emergent" or "emerging church" is concerned (plus all the youth ministry related issues from the conference).

Emergent Malaysia Meets Again ...

To any one interested, we're organizing a simple dinner and conversation at the Father's House (BLC).

Here's what's up:
apart from food and the infomal stuff, we hope to intentionally hear the stories of a couple of "2nd Generation" Christians (especially those who grew up in a so called Malaysian style Christian subculture - if you can call it that) and then move on to issues relating to this reality. It's going to be nice because we'll have some friends from USA visiting us that weekend. I've felt convicted lately that there needs to be more intentionality and coordination to open up "space" for conversations, reflections and possible directions to emerge in our context.

I'll be away from blogging a couple of days .. so I thought I'll leave some transition thoughts here:

I love this tree in the picture above which stood out for me in Tioman Island. And it makes me think of the Tree analogy useful to think about one's journey of faith as well as embracing the best of our Christian heritage. I heard of how Richard Foster uses the metaphor of "streams of living water" to capture the renewing streams of the church down the ages, Robert Brow uses the Garden image. And here Brian McLaren uses a Tree Analogy which is elaborated here in A Generous Orthodoxy: Why I Am An Emergent Christian.

"The meaning of “emergent” is an essential part of the ecosystem of generous orthodoxy. A simple diagram can illustrate what we mean by emergent thinking. Think of a cross section of a tree. Each ring represents, not a replacement of the previous rings, not a rejection of them, but an embracing of them, a comprising of them, and inclusion of them in something bigger. The tree’s previous growth is integrated into, and in fact is essential to, the tree’s continuing growth and strength.

... Emergent Christians look at the world as “our Father’s world.” We stand wide-eyed, trying to take in what’s going on here, understanding it as an unfolding story, an emergent family drama, with birth, growth, struggle, maturity, death, and resurrection. We see God not as a potentate trying to keep serfs under control in the stasis of perpetual childhood, but rather as a parent inviting us to grow and mature, to become as good and beautiful and true as we can become…to emerge.

To return to our tree analogy, God is the air that surrounds the tree, the soil in which it is rooted, the sunlight and rainfall that beckon it to grow and become, season by season, ring by ring. In God we live and grow and have our being. In God’s wind we sway and our leaves dance."

Posted by sivinkit at 08:39 AM | Comments (1)

My recent Emergent Reading Updates

Emergent Church: Filled with creative, energetic potential
I hope the title won't confuse things even more because I'm finding it now more useful to not use "emerging church" and "emergent" interchangably though there's an intimate connection I do feel a distinction will be helpful. Having said that, I found many insights, cautions, encouragements, and guidance here.

Report From Emergent Summit - Part 1 of 4
Can't wait for the other parts :-) Tony Jones responds here to the new appointment.

Why I Support the Recent News From Emergent (or why Tony Jones is not the antichrist)
Jay Voorhees is pretty amazing to articulate the stuff he's saying here that would be relevant to any discussion on organic as well as organizational aspects that comes when people begin to work together in a "network"-kind-of framework.

'Emergent' Christians seek spirituality without nasty theological squabbling
It's nice to read something positive and paints an encouraging + "fun" picture of what's happening with my friends on the other side of the earth.

Understanding the Emerging Church: D. A. Carson
Moody Broadcasting Network "opens" a line for Dr. Carson to express his views (I think I'm putting it mildly here) - I think it's up to the listener to determine whether there's true "understanding" on the issues at hand and the people involved. I wonder how the interview would have been if the line was open for callers to call in?

Post Modernism & Emerging Church with special guest Craig Hawkins
I was not suprised that this was not "friendly" to all things "Post-modernism" and trying to be "fair" to whatever that's under the tag "emerging church". But, it was the way this whole discussion was conducted that really made me wonder even more about "American Evangelicalism" and the other factors involved apart from mere theological and philosophical disagreement.

On Emergent
Ryan Bolger says some really encouraging words here ... and with some insights thrown in - I resonate strongly with this paragraph --> "Emergent provides a place for these travelers to tell their stories, to deconstruct, and yes, eventually to reconstruct their faith. For those who listen carefully and long enough, it is not about Christians losing their faith, but finding it once again as well."

Affirmation (A Response to Aaron)
I like Andrew Jones ... he actually is willing to take the time to "respond" - and here he does a pretty thorough job answering in-your- face-line-drawing kind of questions - such as - Do you publicly affirm penal substitionary atonement? Did Jesus take the punishment we deserve? - Do you publicly affirm eternal punishment / torment / hell?

Traditionalists now have permission to talk to Emergent types
Two things stuck out for me ... one is Jollyblogger's thoughts here, "So what happens when a controversy arises which you don't have the time to investigate thoroughly enough to form your own solid, well grounded opinion? You listen to people you trust. You depend on their opinions to form your own opinions. So, if you are in a group that thinks that N.T. Wright is a wolf in sheep's clothing, the TNIV is the devil's bible, and the emerging church is the apostate church, then by golly, it's time to form up lines and resist all of these wolves, devils and apostates. My point is that it is the opinions and actions of our trusted leaders that usually guide us in our responses to these controversies, rather than our own investigations." The other is Andre Jones comment here, "we really need good criticism and and invite the sharpening of iron when we can get it. The only time i get really defensive is when people make blanket criticisms about the emerging church worldwide when they are only talking about one or two networks or churches (usually in USA) but dont realize that they are endangering new church plants in Portugal and India and Malawi that are sprouting up in the emerging culture in their country - these EMC leaders may be teenagers, brand new Christians and have no idea who Derrida is - and are about to have their funding pulled (or worse - their trust) all because of what someone said in America."

Horton on Emerging Church & Michael Horton Replies
I personally think the White Horse Inn engagement with "the emerging church" issues were one of the better ones. But, the fact that Horton replied and Andrew Jones had a chance to respond makes me have a higher respect for both of them. And the exchange definately is helpful.

What IS Emergent?
I'm thinking of a very helpful email exchange that I had yesterday and today ...I'm sure some of the words here would have been helpful .. check it out:
"I think what is appealing about Emergent and people like Brian McLaren or Don Miller is that I and many of my friends reject the false dichotomy of absolutism v. relativism. On one hand, I think most evangelicals do reject moral relativism. Yet, many of us are often repulsed by the arrogance and anti-intellectualism of many absolutists.

"I think you hit the nail on the head. What's appealing to me about
the emergents, particularly Don Miller (only loosely tied to the
emergents, as far as I can tell), is in the wake of my 15-year
encounter with evangelicalism was the arrogance of certitude on
every minor point of theology, even when different denominations
held differing views. I mean what percentage of evangelics belong to
the denomination of their parents and are convinced that it
coincidentally is right about everything. Emergent doesn't assert
that there is no absolute truth, just that we're unlikely to get
everything exactly right on this earth.""

Dear Dignan: an Answer on the Emerging Church
Thanks Brother Maynard for this effort to respond to the above question. His four points are useful (I'll probably easily exchange the phrase "postmodern culture" in point 2 to "Asian-Malaysian-non-christian-post/neo-colonial-secular-globalized-add-to-the-list-21st century culture" (in short the context we live in here and now. So, here's a non-exhaustive list of characteristics he offers:
1. Something’s wrong with the way we’ve been “doing church” — it’s become, or becoming, ineffective and irrelevant.

and based on these,
4. It’s time for a re-examination of what is really central to the faith and a re-consideration of what the best structure for church ought to be.

Emergent Response to Critics

I appreciate that this response is not done individually but rather collectively (i.e. Tony Jones, Doug Pagitt, Spencer Burke, Brian McLaren, Dan Kimball, Andrew Jones, Chris Seay) ... I like this sense of community and accountability and humility reflected in this piece. More comments later ... for now read for yourself and allow your own response to emerge :-)

Our Response to Critics of Emergent (PDF here for download.)

Emergent Convention 2005 - Input

Of course, I'll carry on my "imaginary conversation" slowly .. because it's going to be a busy two weeks for me .. I'm trying to be an "unbusy" pastor ... but I will fail upfront these two weeks as far as busyness is concerned. Loads of repenting and realignment after these two weeks :-) after a good few days in an Island for holiday (yippiee! more on that later)

Here's some blogs I'll be checking out ... for glimpses of the convention and whatever that will spark from there..

Adam Cleaveland - nice chronological approach.

Dan Kimball - one of the few emergentYS line authors who blogged about the convention.

Susie Albert Miller - I think my first link to her was something related to intergenerational concerns ... will check her out more.

Aaron Klinefelter (Aaron also has worked hard so we could listen to the podcats provided by conversatio fide)

Will Samson - he threw in some interesting reflections which I hope to engage.

Mark Oestreicher - facinating insider view.

Jay Voorhees - loved the Kitty photo he posted up .. and I think I'd introduce him to my Methodist friends :-) and the Gregory of Nyssa Quote he has on his blog really rocks!

Emerging God - a new blog I've been following.

Latina Liz - with a recomendation from Rudy Carrasco I realize I need to check this blog out for a wider perspective!

Preference: Critique or Conversation?

I've always found it hard to enter into a "critique" mode ... I find it hard to do a book review and offer a critique on the authors ideas. By this I don't mean I've tossed out the need to be criticial or as a person I don't easily dish out criticisms. What I'm saying is it's just "hard" and in some way a more "draining" exercise for me. I know we can't swallow everything we read or hear. And we need to be on guard especially when in our Malaysian context there's a greater tendency to just follow the crowd, ot the trend or what pragmatically works. So, there is a need for IMHO some kind of "healthy critique" mode we need to operate at some point. And thus, "Critical thinking" is not to be eliminated. But, somehow ... it's not as energizing for me ... necessary at times but not so prefered most of the time. If there's something I disagree with, there's a tendency that I'd "critique" it in general (as in not personal) and probably just focus on what I find "connection" with ... and put more energy there.

That's why the whole "conversation" mode appeals to me so much. For stuff I'm ignorant I'd rather be silent, or ask questions, or wait and give some time before I say something. And then, at times even suspend judgement for a while (I know that's hard because internal battles go on in my mind during this stage), learn some patience - give the other some space to continue. When engaged in "conversation" mode ... I think the "critique" element is there but not so much at the forefront .. so as not to stop the "flow" of conversation. A lot of restraint is needed so there's meeting of minds, ideas, and possibilities at some point. There's a kind of "safety" in this kind of environment ... and yet there's definately potential for "change" to happen ... not in a head on collision way often when one is in a "critique" mode, but more in a subtle way where it's not the other pressurizing us to adpot their view point .. but the listener given space to make adjustments or alignment themselves. Very likely, it wouldn't be exactly as expected from the speaker but it's "change" nonetheless.

So, I prefer "conversations" without ignoring the need to "critique" when needed. But I suppose it's more about what comes to the forefront ... a more level ground "conversation" marked by much restraint, space and patience - allowing the "critique" mode to be more subdued while not extinguising our critical faculties .. emphasizing the relational dimention of truth-engaging, or knowledge-exchange with a strong accent on the human face than just dabbling in the exchange of ideas and disembodied knowledge.

I'm not sure how much sense I'm making here ... but ... it's therapeutic I must say. :-)

with all the above off my chest, I'd like to continue with much appreciation to many bloggers who blogged their notes, feeings and insights ... from the recent Emergent Convention 2005 in Nashville. As one who was unable to make it for obvious reasons of distance, I find myself in no position to offer "critique" but it would be fun to pick some aspects and have an "imaginary" conversation with stuff that just "resonate" or "connect" (that's the fun this whole internet and blogging experience offers) so, on with the conversations ...

The 3rd Postmodernism?

Increasingly the term "postmodernism" or "postmodern" is cropping up in our conversations here in Malaysia or a recent seminar in Singapore actually had a workshop on it. When words are used to "exclude" or as yardstick of whether you are ok or even as a "trendy cool" word then it's harder to engage in genuine interaction... but if it's used to invite participation, generate thought, stimulate further discussion, then bring it on ... why not?

This made me check out some links and especially relook at Brian's article on "The Three Postmodernisms: A short explanation" and see how he tries to bring it to a level where some engagement is possible.

Of course, I'm hearing a pastor-evangelist or even a missionary posture speaking here more than a scholar (though Brian's stuff is always smart and thoughful) using the final part to keep things in perspective and on the ground:

"As a follower of Christ, I am less interested in articulating the ideal definition of this movement in words than I am in helping contribute to what the postmodern world becomes in reality. I am hoping that many people of faith and vision can play a formative role in what will happen beyond modernity and adolescent postmodernity: seeking to be salt and light, seeking to do good works, seeking to do justice and love mercy and walk humbly with God.

In other words, the best answer to the question, “What will happen with the emerging postmodern movement?” is this: “It depends on people like us.”

When I look at the postmodern landscape, I see “fields ready for harvest,” as Jesus said. But so far, in spite of so much being at stake at this critical moment in history, those willing to get out into the fields and do the hard work of seizing the moment are too few. There are plenty of critics who stand at a safe distance on the modern road that runs beside the postmodern fields, shouting their criticisms and warnings. Instead of joining them, you will, I hope, pray to “the Lord of the harvest” – so that more workers will become willing to jump into the action and get their hands dirty in the postmodern fields, making visible the good news of Jesus."

The Brian McLaren Blog Tour which I missed

Sometimes these things happen ... *smile*

When Brian McLaren was "internet-trotting" having a fun time (I think) with his blog tour for his latest book. I actually missed it because I was at the Lutheran pastors retreat in Cameron (with a ministerium meeting thrown in plus I was unable to get online - more like no time!)

Oh yes .. I think it's good to go on record that Brian has grown to become my friend (an impotant friend told me the word "Friend" is a powerful and we shouldn't underestimate it :-) - just in case some might wonder whether I'm a Brian McLaren groupie or Malaysian fan club chairman! *grin* --> on both counts I'm not - I was never drawn to read Brian's book because he was hip or popular. When I first picked up his first book ... it's more of - "hey! That resonates with me!" and apart from the intuitive dimension - there weren't many English books in the Christian market that kind of "opened up" some space for my thoughts to interact with some ideas in my mind safely without being shot down - too quickly. So, I appreciated the "intellectual" dimension where I could think about issues related to church, Christianity, evangelism, spirituality, the recent one on "hell" etc. in a not so stuffy "academic" flavour (though I do appreciate that as well - it's just different). We all know friends don't agree on every single detail in life - that's assumed. But the conversations of friends who are genuinely open to share and receive from one another does allow for possibilities for encouraging constructive ways forward and gentle critic to keep us in check ..

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Here's what I could manage to cut and paste (for more click on the links for a wider context of the questions and comments). Thanks to all the bloggers (and those who left comments) who made this possible- take a deep breath - this is one of the longest posts I've put up thus far - read on if you like (I guess ... I compiled it more for me *smile*):

From Andrew Jones: The Blog Post of Brian McLaren

Thanks, Andrew, for getting the ball rolling on some important dialogue.
I love Andrew's post on "does the church believe in heaven." I just finished a paraphrase of the Gospel of Luke, and being immersed in Luke's gospel for several months ... it was very clear that Jesus wanted his followers to be willing to risk all for him and his gospel. Confidence in heaven made them willing to risk.

Some of you may know that I'm very involved in trying to get action and protection for the people of Darfur, Sudan. To me, the test of my faith in Christ, the gospel, and heaven is whether I'm willing to risk my life for people who suffer ...

Meanwhile, I recently read that among the most committed Christians, "tithing" averages under 3%.

The language of heaven and hell is intended, I believe, to push us to see that ultimate things are at stake ... that we need to "wake from our slumber."

Posted by: brian McLaren | May 9, 2005 12:29 PM

Re: Joe's comment above - that no adult has been scared into the kingdom ...

I'm sure there are exceptions to this, but I find that a scare tactic turns more adults away from God and the church than attracts them.

I wonder if this might help explain that commonly quoted statistic that hardly anyone in most churches became a Christian after the age of 14? Maybe our "scare tactics" are designed to appeal to children and not adults?

When I read Jesus in the gospels, I see him using very strong language ... there's no language stronger than hell language ... but not as a scare tactic. Rather, he's trying to wake sleeping people to the realities of choice they face at this moment.

Posted by: brian McLaren | May 9, 2005 12:35 PM

Great comments, everyone! Thanks - comments on specific questions below ...
++++
brian,
...i wonder if it is possible to address some of the issues without changing one's view of hell (and other things). does the fruit or bad fruit of the "doctrine" necessarily condemn the "doctrine"? ...how do you respond to the accusation that your "new" ideas are only responses to cultural shifts and the incompatibility of traditional christianity with postmodern sensibilities?
+++++
OK - for the first question, I try to include a character in the book - Carol - who represents exactly the option you ask about: not changing her view on hell, but being open to other new insights. Yes, I think this is possible.

For the second question, this sounds like you have read D. A. Carson's book on the emerging church (which Andrew has blogged on here in helpful ways). Can I recommend you read David Mills' (Cedarville College) helpful response to Dr. Carson? I think he addressed this question well and in detail. (Maybe somebody can put up a link here - if you google on "David Mills McLaren" it will come right up.)

Bottom line: my new ideas are in response to reading the Scriptures, and especially the gospels, and trying to take the Scriptures more seriously than the systematic theologies I was taught ... NOT that I'm against systematic theologies, but I believe they can obscure our reading of Scripture as well as aid it.

+++++
I just finished reading "the last word and the word after that" and I am fearful of being branded here as "someone who just doesent get it." While I agree with much of what Brian wrote about the Gospel being much more comprehensive than just filling the pews in Heaven and that the Kingdom of God is here; I am still left with the big "E" on the eyechart wondering well what do you believe happens when we die? I mean I know we can go round and round talking about how this is not the question to ask, but people do and they are concerned about it, so just wondering what you do think about this Brian.
thanks,
++++

Ryan - that's certainly a legimitate question. The reason I didn't go too far into my own views on this is that I thought I was doing enough in one book to raise issues and stimulate people to think on their own. I didn't want to impose my views but rather to stimulate thinking - so people will look at the Scriptures in a fresh way.

I gave a better glimpse into my own thought on the afterlife in "The Story We Find Ourselves In." In short, I believe we pass from this life into the presence of God, where all our sin is judged and eradicated, and what remains (I'm thinking of Paul's phrase "gold, silver, precious stones") constitutes the beginning of our ongoing identity. There is real possibility of tragedy - wasting one's life, so there isn't much to carry over beyond this life. There is also a great possibility for joy, because every cup of cold water given in love is not forgotten.

I should add that resurrection - not a disembodied state in heaven - is the Biblical vision of afterlife as I understand it. I like John Polkinghorne's way of describing death and resurrection (quoted by N. T. Wright): at death, God uploads our software onto his hardware, and then at the resurrection, downloads our software into new hardware.

Posted by: brian McLaren | May 9, 2005 03:01 PM

Hi, everybody - I'm really frustrated because I'm supposed to be at suddenly seminary but have been trying for 40 minutes or so and can't get checked in the hotel. Arrgh. Sorry for all those who are waiting for me to show up. Maybe we can reschedule for later in the week, after I have overcome whatever is the problem in getting in. (Apparently habbo doesn't recognize shockwave on my computer.)

I'll answer a couple quick questions ...

1. I have a question for Brian. In your first comment you said that Jesus uses hell to push us to see that "ultimate things are at stake" - in your mind, what are the "ultimate things" that are at stake?

-- Whether we waste our one and one life, or we invest it in what really matters: loving God, loving our neighbors in the way of Christ. If we waste our lives, we will have to stand before God and face this reality. I can't think of anything more serious than that.

I also think (following NT Wright) that Jesus had a special message for his Jewish people: "you stand at risk of losing your identity as the people of God who were called "to be blessed, to be a blessing" ... if you reject me, you are rejecting God." Serious indeed!

Today ... our world is in such deep trouble, and so are we individually. If we turn from Jesus and his message of God's kingdom ... what are we going to do with our lives? Buy more stuff? Trust in more weapons? Smoke more dope? I hope that gives some idea of what I think is at stake, in this life and beyond.

Posted by: brian McLaren | May 9, 2005 08:39 PM

Back to David's question ...

Let me paraphrase it.

The conventional idea of Hell is unpopular in our culture. If I'm questioning the conventional idea of Hell, does that mean I'm accommodating to our culture, watering down the gospel, etc? Even if I'm not, am I not in danger of doing so?

(Let me know if I've missed the meaning of the question.)
First a couple of provisos:
1. I am not questioning Scripture, Jesus, or his teaching. I am questioning the conventional understanding of them ... this is an important distinction.
2. I am being very Protestant and Evangelical in this ... I am going back to Scripture to test what I've been taught.
3. I didn't begin questioning the conventional understanding of Hell in order to be hip, conformist to culture, etc. I began questioning because I more deeply engaged with Scripture and felt that my conventional understanding flattened and oversimplified some of the richness of Scripture and created logical and spiritual problems for me and others.

Now to your specific question ... I am calling people to follow Jesus. That means calling them to repentance, sacrifice, faith, service, worship, reconciliation, character formation, spiritual transformation, commitment to the poor, willingness to suffer, courage to be misunderstood and persecuted, prayer, obedience, humility, confidence, and love for enemies. These things are not terribly in vogue in our culture.

By the way, conformity to a Christian subculture is also an issue. It was hard for abolitionists to question the conventional doctrines regarding slavery and race ... sometimes we must be as concerned about conformity to the religious subculture as we are the secular culture. Many of us are more afraid of breaking step with the former than the latter.

But at the end of the day - we all stand in danger of conforming to this world. Which is why we must seek to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, having given ourselves as living sacrifices to Christ.

Does that help clarify?

Posted by: brian McLaren | May 9, 2005 08:49 PM

From Jen Lemen: to hell and back with brian mclaren (Jen even throws in a superb interview for starters! )

Hi, J.J. - I spoke a bit about the Eastern Orthodox idea of hell in A New Kind of Christian, but not extensively. In its favor, this view says "There is nowhere you can go to be separated from God's presence." (By the way - the oft-quoted idea that "death is separation" - is, I think, on the same level as "God helps those who helps themselves." It's not in the Bible, but many people think it is.)

The view raises other problems ... like, "How could heaven be a pleasant place if many or most of the people walking around were in agony?"

What I really like about the view is that it focuses attention not on whether you have the right "bar code" of having said the "sinner's prayer" or not ... but rather, it focuses attention on what kind of person you are becoming here and now.

That, I think, is Jesus' concern. The Pharisees could be highly religious - but they had become vicious people in the process. Their piety covered ugly things. Judgment (very important in my mind!) means the truth is told about what's hiding under the skin of piety ... The truth comes out; the masks and lies are torn away.

If we believe we will face this kind of judgment later, we can choose to face reality now. Pretense, hypocrisy, spiritual cosmetics don't make sense if they're ultimately failing, self-destructive strategies. So we choose to face the truth now ... and seek to live accordingly.

That will change the direction of our lives (i.e. repentance) and set us on a course of living in harmony with our beliefs about God (i.e. faith) and as a result - we will become a different (better) kind of person than we would have otherwise been. As that happens to more and more people, the trajectory of the world's future shifts from self-destruction to hope (kingdom of God). Jesus, I believe, came to accomplish this very thing.

Posted by: brian mclaren at May 9, 2005 08:08 AM

Hi all - here are some responses to some of your questions ...

Q:
Brian, thanks for the courage and gentleness in addressing some very difficult issues in your recent writings. I think one of the major contributions you're making is a gentler tone of voice for Christian faith dialogue.

I'd imagine it was quite challenging to do the metaphorical archeological dig for the history of hell, and your latest book might be perceived as doing too much to decouple the notion of hell as eternal conscious torment from the Gospel's more holistic message and intent, rather than presenting an answer or prescription for how to live out the Gospel for the sake of the Kingdom.

Perhaps it's too much to ask for in one book to do both? Or, to say it another way, might some of your readers be asking for too much, for you to both deconstruct and to construct in the span of a book?
Posted by djchuang at May 9, 2005 08:44 AM

A: DJ - thanks for your kind words, and for recognizing this limitation. It's hard to do one thing reasonably well in a single book, much less everything! Your question encourages me ... because the book I'm working on now is about the Kingdom of God - an attempt at reconstruction. I hope it will pick up where this one left off. But without addressing the hell question, I fear that changing "fine print" on the theological contract won't make much of a difference.

Q:
Brian, Why do so many western Christians behave the way they do and focus on law rather than the great commandment? If I understand you correctly you are saying that a major factor is their undestanding of hell. But couldn't the real problem be our understanding of what it means to believe instead? That we have never figured out what James 2:18 was saying? One of my concerns with your emphasis on hell is how it balances grace and works. Isn't there a danger of devaluing grace?
Posted by Tom at May 9, 2005 10:14 AM

A: My friend Dallas Willard says that many of us are not only saved by grace, we're also paralyzed by it. Grace, as I understand it, energizes us for good works, and good works have nothing to do with earning ... they have to do with creativity, fruitfulness, joy, life, giving, caring. You're right - nobody needs to go back to Pelagianism, etc. I hope nobody gets a sniff of that in my work. But I do hope that my work encourages people to see that good works aren't a bad thing - they're actually one of the purposes of the gospel (I don't have a Bible with me - but maybe someone can post that beautiful verse from Titus in this regard ... )

The Eastern tradition didn't seem to become so preoccupied with a) legal metaphors for salvation ( preferring medical ones), b) original sin as an ontological blot that must be removed, c) determining who's in and out in eternity (though it's very clear who's in and out in the true church for them). Their focus (as I discern it - and it's hard for an outsider to be accurate) has been more on Christ as the healer of the cosmos ... he assumes humanity and heals it, he enters history (like medicine) and heals it. We live in the outworking of that healing. No, more - we're part of it.

Q:
Brian--really enjoyed the book, it has helped me deal with some of the fundamental baggage I've had for a while about hell and evangelism. I especially liked the list/categories of the scriptures dealing with hell in the book. My question is more on the practical side--how do we raise these questions in our conservative churches without being stoned. I am still working out my own views on hell and the gospel--and it is like a fresh new wind in my life, but in honesty, it's been difficult to share this or translate it in my faith community. Any thoughts?
Posted by brian orme at May 9, 2005 10:17 AM

A: Based on my experience, I don't recommend you raise these issues in your church ... unless you feel a special calling and empowering from God to do so. First, you could hurt the church - it may not be able to handle dialogue on this. (Many of our Protestant churches have a sociological unity based on uniformity of opinion and can't yet handle the more difficult unity based on love in diversity). Second, you could get hurt quite badly yourself - people can be quite vicious when these kinds of questions are raised! So far, nobody has used literal stones on me, but there have been some hard verbal rocks thrown, and they can leave bruises.

Instead, I'd find a few close friends with whom you can have honest dialogue and work this out with them. Then, get on with living well.

Q:
Question: I'm a pastor in the United Church of Canada, and I've noticed that a lot of the time, when I read about the emergent/emerging church I find myself saying "Hey, that's us!"

As a denomination, we in the UCC:
--try to draw on to the best of the traditions and experiences that came before us.
--we try to learn from past screw-ups.
-- we try not to be bound by "we've always done it this way"
-- we strive to be inclusive, basing that theologically on the life of Jesus.
-- we try to speak a relevant Word in creative and meaningful ways to a searching world.

The question: Are we emergent????

A: Sounds like it, Sue! There's a lot of room in this conversation, and there's a lot of work to do together, so I'm for welcoming everyone into the journey who wants to learn and contribute.

Q:
"Salvation by grace, judgement by works. There's nothing in the Bible clearer than those two realities. Of course, you have to define salvation in Jesus' way, not just modern Western Christianity's."

and

"I didn't realize that being judged isn't the same as being condemned and that being saved means a lot more than not being judged."

In Banff you spoke of justice and mercy. Now, I see a link. I've always been perplexed by the legitimacy of me being a good Christian - that is, to "follow" a deity who obviously cared about the poor, the oppressed, the widow and the orphan, the ignored and overlooked - while not doing any of the same.

The notion that we will be judged by our works makes intuitive sense to me, as long as we broaden our narrow Western Christian definition of "judgement". While recognizing that this probably falls under the "I don't know" category, can you elaborate a little on this idea of the judgement of believers?

A: First, thanks for noticing those sentences. I felt they were pretty important when I wrote them. The biggest thing that comes to my mind is how little this subject comes up in our conventional understanding - but how real it is in the NT. Maybe somebody would like to post some of the Scriptures that speak of judgment of believers. Again - it doesn't mean condemnation: it means giving an accurate assessment. Let me think on this some more and see if I can add something - but I expect other people in this conversation will add something better than I can.

Q:
Brian, what does that in-between space look like? Right now, I don't get and don't particularly want to get Jesus. But I also don't want to go elsewhere? Where in our current Christian culture is there room for us "between people"?

(p.s. when I say I don't particularly want to get Jesus, maybe what I mean is that I really don't want to get the evangelical cultural Jesus. I'm so tired and sad that it just doesn't seem worth it)
Posted by Lisa at May 9, 2005 01:39 PM

A: Lisa ... I have a special place in my heart for people like you, because I think you probably get Jesus a lot more than you realize, and maybe a lot more than the rest of us. What is making your tired and sad is probably the same kind of thing that would make Jesus feel that way ... and maybe those are some of the things he had in mind when he said, "Blessed are they who mourn."

Here's a thought: what if you were to try an experiment - assuming that God was no less with you in the in-between place than he is with anybody anywhere? And what if you were simply experiment with following Jesus in the in-betweenness - not to earn anything, not to prove anything to anybody, but just to try to live in his way ... say, working with the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7). It would be especially good if you could do this with some other friends who felt the same way ... and maybe you could all post your experiences over a month or two. I think that would be a worthwhile experiment.

Q: My unending challenge is to find ways of incorporating progressive, "emergent" thought into my teaching and theatrics, while never coming right out and saying... such and such. It must be subversive. Subversive teaching certainly makes for engaging drama, but as a spiritual lifestyle, it is painful - like a little butter spread over too much toast.

A: This wasn't a question, but it sure was well said!
Posted by: brian mclaren at May 9, 2005 06:16 PM

From Jason Clark: Talk with Brian McLaren

Hi, all - Thanks for your interest and good discussion ... Here are a couple of replies to some of the questions you raised ...

Q:
I do have a couple of questions for you. The quote that Dan gets from Markus I quite like that. But if it is only all about making the world to a better place, it can seem like we are just doing what the NGO's are doing. You can argue that they are also doing Gods work also, so is there any difference between the work of the NGO's and the work of the church, and what would that difference be?

A: I'm comfortable saying that NGO's are doing work that pleases God ... but if they aren't proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and the truth about Jesus, that means there's still more to do. And of course - if we proclaim the good news of the kingdom and the truth about Jesus without doing "good works" ... we're not doing the whole job either! I think we should rejoice whenever people are doing good ... and we should do what Christ has commanded us to do, which is an integral holistic mission of proclamation and demonstration.

Also, I never say it is ONLY about making the world a better place. I'm just saying that is a BIG PART of the good news and it shouldn't be left out. An important distinction, I think you'll agree.

Q:
An other question relates more to the whole triology. I suppose you can say that a new kind of christianity is about a more inclusive christianity. But would there in your understanding of it be a bounded set and centered set or would it only be a centered set, and how do you define the bounded set - especially regarding leadership.

A: Thomas - great questions from Denmark! I talk about bounded, centered, and dynamic sets in A Generous Orthodoxy and More Ready Than You Realize. In short ... of course, there is a sense of boundaries that we must maintain. For example, a hospital needs to know who its doctors and nurses are. They can't let just anybody come in and try to perform surgery! But the purpose of being "exclusive" regarding staff is so they can be inclusive regarding sick people who come in needing help. This is a very different kind of exclusion from an elite club, for example. I hope our churches resemble the former.

Q:
I agree that our understanding of hell and salvation must be redescribed and refound in a postmodern context. I remember an old Danish professor I once heard speaking on this topic, I think she was a bit like Ruth Mitchell in the book. She said, that the doctrine of hell especially develloped with the reformation and the enlightenment and the modern era and the extreme focus on humans. She said something like this: Who are we to think that we have more power than God and can decide for ourselves if we want to be saved or not? He didn't ask if we wanted to be created - did he? Creation was an act of love from God not something we could choose or not - so it is with salvation as well. It's the continuation of the evolving creation of God.
Posted by: Lasse (DK) | May 9, 2005 11:51 PM

A: Lasse - this is a very different approach from most approaches I hear, which emphasize free will. Interesting point - we have no free will in being created. God "imposes" this good gift on us. You've given me something to think about!

Q:
Have you ever heard of Ken Wilber (non-christian, American, post-post-modern philosopher)?

What do you think of his Integral work ("A Theory of Everything", "One Taste", "Sex, Ecology and Spirituality", "Grace and Grit", Commentary track on "The Matrix" etc.)?
Can/should there be any highly visible conversation with him and Integral?

A: Whitewave - I refer to Ken's work in my book "A Generous Orthodoxy." I think he's doing important work. A friend of mine is an acquaince of his. Perhaps someday there will be some contact. I don't agree with him in everything (that would apply to just about anybody for any of us!) ... but his work has helped me in a number of ways, especially A Theory of Everything, Marriage of Sense and Soul, and Boomeritis. Jay Gary (jaygary.com) is a committed Christian who studied with Wilber and is applying Wilber's work to Christian mission. Great fellow!

Q: Ok now I am the third person from Denmark who comments on this post (I don’t that has happened before). I am also glad to have finished the book! It actually made me think (like the two other books did).
I have had some discussions for two years a go with one of my friends (Thank God that he still is my friend (I was not really old at that time and not that mature in my Christian life)). Well I was an exclusivenist. I told him that I thought that he would end up in hell. In the last two years many things have happened with my theology. You can say that I have become more inclusive and stuff like that. Well, that was a bit of the context. After the conversation about hell my friend and me haven’t spoke much about Christianity. He got scared away (looking back in the mirror I don’t blame him). I have a difficult but beautiful responsibility to tell him about my new thoughts about Christianity. But I am not sure how (but that is my own problem). My problem is that I don’t know what to tell him. Because the Good News can’t just be that I have chanced opinions. What is the Good News for my friend – if it has nothing to do with eternal life? And what is the Good News – if he does not people in Jesus? And if he starts believing in Jesus does it mean that he has to stop smoking pot (which is one of the only things he is really enjoying)?
And what is the Good News for the people in my church, who have always believed in bringing people to Church/Heaven being their only purpose? The only thing they are doing. I don’t think it is Good News to tell them to stop doing the one thing they have done and believed in all their life.
I think I have used my space on this site for now!
Posted by: Simon (DK) | May 10, 2005 04:42 PM

A: Simon - great to hear from Denmark today! First, I wouldn't want to swing to the opposite extreme - from an overemphasis on afterlife to an underemphasis or denial of afterlife altogether. That would be a terrible mistake. The message of the kingdom embraces people alive on earth now and those who are not now visible to us. It's a both/and thing ...

As for your friend, I would tell him this good news: life in the kingdom is available to all - including potsmokers from Denmark! God invites all of us to rethink our lives and consider joining in the life and work of the kingdom of God. (This might not be the best language to use ... but that's another story.) When we begin living in the kingdom - many things will change. He may just find that there are better things than smoking pot, just as consumerists discover there are better things than consumption, etc. But that will come in time - with the Holy Spirit's work.

I like what the other commenter said ... part of our witness is admitting when we've made mistakes. I think God's grace flows when we're humble in this way. Your humility shows through beautifully in your post.

Q: I guess my question is why reformulate the concept of hell just because some people focus on eternal in an overboard way? Couldn't the Gospel of the Kingdom not contradict the Gospel of Salvation? Part of God's grace is that we deserve judgement. Couldn't it be that we send ourselves to hell not God? Jesus says if you don't believe Me you are condemned already in your sins. "It is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgement." To me it already seems consistent. I don't understand the need to reformulate. It doesn't make sense to me.
Posted by: dh | May 10, 2005 05:24 PM

A: DH - As I said above - we shouldn't overreact to some people's improper balance by creating an equal and opposite improper balance, so I agree with you in principle. But the situation is more complex than it appears.

If you aren't having problems with the conventional doctrine of hell, I wouldn't worry about it. If you do someday have problems with it, my book may be of help to you.

Those of us who are questioning the conventional formulation aren't doing so to be trendy or cool or compromising or reactionary, etc., but because we're trying to be faithful to the Scriptures, and we're concerned that the conventional doctrine doesn't do full justice to the Scriptures.

Thanks again, everyone! Maybe Jason and I will meet some of you in Denmark next year. Warmly - Brian

Posted by: brian McLaren | May 11, 2005 02:36 AM

From Adam Cleaveland: "Conversations About Hell" with Brian McLaren

Hi, Adam - OK, first the confession: I don't have an iPod. If I did, I don't think I'd have time to download songs into it. Pathetic, I know. Maybe someday. I am a huge lover of music, though, and have just been listening with delight to my friend John Mortenson's mostly live CD of Irish music called "Plays Well With Others." Irish music is good for my soul. I'm also a fanatic Bruce Cockburn fan (when's the next CD coming out?) and love just about anybody who's a singer-songwriter ... Steve Bell (who's working on an album of Cockburn songs - but he's a splendid songwriter himself), David Wilcox, Bob Bennett, Michael Kelly Blanchard are "old" favorites, along with Sheryl Crow, Alanis Morrisette, Jewel, Bonnie Raitt ... but there are so many great new talents coming along too. I can't keep up with them all.

Now to your first question ... For me, things really started happening when I first heard the term "narrative theology." I can't remember where I first heard it, but it may have been Jim McClendon's work. Anyway, N.T. Wright (for the NT) and Walter Brueggemann (for the OT) have probably helped me more than anyone in reading the Bible narratively.

When you have a sense of the Biblical narrative, you stop reading the Bible so much as a source of proof-texts for a systematic theology ... and you read it more as a conversation taking place in an unfolding story. (This is really the point of "The Story We Find Ourselves In" - Book 2 in the trilogy, and in many ways, its centerpiece.)

As well, when we enter the narrative imaginatively, we start asking, "Why would Jeremiah say this? Why would Jacob do that? Why would an editor include this story in this way, in obvious tension with the way the same story was told in that other version? What was Habbakuk trying to get his readers to feel, do, think - in their specific historic/political/religious context?" That's when things - for me, anyway - get even more interesting.

Of course, all of this brings us to look at our world - Darfur, Congo, North Korea, the Religious Right, the global economy, Bill O'Reilly, American Idol - and ask the right questions here and now. What dangers do we need to expose and confront? What sparks of hope or virtue do we need to fan? Who is suffering and forgotten? How does God want us to respond?

I hope that's helpful. Feel free to follow up, as this is such an important question, and I may just be rambling.

Posted by: brian mclaren | May 9, 2005 08:32 AM

Just wanted to stop by once more to see if any other questions came up.
Joshua - thanks for your comment. it's interesting ... I'm less sure that we MUST have a system; I wonder if for some people in the future (as in the past) the narrative itself will carry the freight that systems carry for us in modernity. If the system is an attempt to extract from each story, poem, law, etc., a timeless statement that can be integrated with other timeless statements into a timeless system ... some of us think that the desire for timelessness is itself a somewhat (not exclusively) modern thing. A narrative approach seeks timeliness more than timelessness, I think ... its goals are more modest, maybe echoing Deut. 29:29. We need to know what to do to be faithful to the Lord, as our children will need ... and their children, and so on.

But I suppose we humans are constantly seeking coherence and comprehensiveness, and if that's what you mean by system, I don't disagree at all.

Thanks, all, for good conversation here at pomomusings. Keep up the good dialogue!

Posted by: brian mclaren | May 10, 2005 10:49 PM

From Jordon Cooper: Brian McLaren - guest blogging

Hi, all -

Thanks, Jordon, for the chance to visit! For some reason, I'm unable to log in, so I've asked Greg to post this for me. I'll check back later this afternoon.

OK ... why evangelize?
1. Jesus told me to. That's reason enough.
2. People are like sheep without a shepherd. They aren't living the abundant life. If they follow Jesus, they'll find life.
3. The world is in a mess. Without good news, it's going to self-destruct. Jesus teaches and exemplifies the way to a better life, not only for individuals, but for the planet.

What about "weeping and gnashing of teeth?"
The possibility is real that people (and groups of people) can waste their lives, play on the wrong side, fight against God, frustrate God's grace, get in the way, cause others to suffer, miss out on life's best joys (like the joy of giving). One of the primary meanings of hell language is regret over wasted potential, missed opportunities. I'm NOT a universalist in the sense of saying, "Look, everybody is going to heaven, so it doesn't matter what you believe or how you live." I hope that my line of thinking leads to a greater sense of accountability (especially among those Christians who seem to think because they have the right beliefs it's impossible for them to face regret for how they've lived their lives).

HTH - Brian

By Greg, at 8:18 AM

Hi, all - here are two more replies ...

1....however, I am challenged to more tightly integrate this with other Bible basics, ie. sin, atonement, final states… otherwise I get a sense Jesus becomes reduced to a dr. phil, oprah, self-help, make-the-world-a-better-place guru.

How would you articulate the necessity for the work of Christ, beyond his teachings, and its relationship with our response and eternal states? Hope that makes sense.
By Lon, at 9:57 AM

-- Good question. I try to answer this a bit in "A Generous Orthodoxy" in my chapter on "seven Jesuses." Let me sum it like this. As a trinitarian, I believe Jesus is God incarnate. So, the kingdom of God has Jesus as its king. A king doesn't rule by teachings alone. A king rules by presence, involvement, example, action, intervention, motivation, etc. So Jesus is absolutely essential, not just for one thing (whether his teaching, his shed blood, or whatever) ... he is essential for all things that he is and does as our king. He is everything to me.

2. Bonjour Brian,

Thanks for stopping by today. You certainly force us to dig right into thinking deeper about issues.

I am really challenged by what you said about hell. Are you saying there will be NO definite demarcation between righteous and unrighteous?

-- NO! I'm not saying that at all! In fact, I'm saying the very opposite! Thanks so much for asking for clarification here. I'd hate for anybody to have this misconception!

How much can we soften up Matthew 25 : "41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

-- I don't want to soften that up at all! But here's what's interesting: Matthew 25 doesn't say, "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me ... for you never prayed to ask me into your heart, you never confessed me as your Lord and Savior, you never said the sinner's prayer, you never walked the aisle, you never identified yourself as a born-again-Bible-believin' Christian."

--So the conventional view doesn't really deal with this text as well as I do, I'd say!!!

Are we not to take into account all the other passages mentioning hell, eternal fire, eternal separation from the presence of God, Hades, etc.? Isn't salvation a demarcation, made visible by a life bearing fruits of repentance?

-- I took a whole book to answer this question ... We need to take every one of those passages seriously. I don't think the conventional view does so. And yes ... salvation is more than fire insurance: it is being healed from a sin-sick life so that we can live a healthy, fruitful life, just as you say.

HTH everyone! More later ...

By brian McLaren, at 2:01 PM

Jordan asked ...

You allude to the 'abundant life' and that it is a reality here and now.
My difficulty with that is where?
Where do you suggest we look to find this and learn it? I know that Jesus presented it...but what does it look like now in North America in 2005?

-- Jordan, this is an incredibly important question. This is what "spiritual formation" is all about ... helping people be formed into the kinds of people who experience and practice and convey abundant life. This is what I've been learning, little by little, for about thirty years.

I think it looks like justice (seeking justice for the poor, needy, oppressed, in whatever small or large ways we can - as Mother Teresa said, little things done with great love can change the world), peace (living in reconciled relationships with others - Christians, nonChristians, atheists, Buddhists, Iraqis, everyone we can), and joy (which flows from gratitude and other spiritual disciplines) in the Holy Spirit. A lot more could be said. Maybe others can chime in on this.

Sadly, too many of our religious institutions aren't focused on answering this important question!

By brian McLaren, at 2:05 PM

Hi, all - I just stopped by to see if there were any more comments today.

Thanks again for the good dialogue. Keep up the great work, Jordon. You've got a great site and a great group of people gathering here.

Shane asked ...
Do you believe in Hell?
-- Shane, I believe in Jesus, and I believe in everything he said, but I don't believe that we all (myself included) accurately understand everything he said, including what he said about hell. That's what my book tries to explore.
Do you believe in the accuracy of Luke 16:19-31?
-- Yes, of course! But I wonder if you believe what this passage seems to teach - that rich people go to hell, and poor people to Abraham's bosom? I raise that question to point out that these things aren't as simple as many people make them sound.

Are you a universalist?
-- No.

Also - someone remarked about the irony of writing a book on hell saying we're overpreoccupied with hell. That is ironic, you're right ... but actually, the book isn't really about hell primarily. It's about our view of God, and our understanding of the gospel. Thanks again, everyone, for some great dialogue!

By brian mclaren, at 8:02 PM

From Dwight Friesen: Brian McLaren's post

Hi, all - thanks for the great posts. A few brief comments ...

Alex, I appreciate your concern about upholding the right boundary lines. I have no right (or desire!) to change anything God has laid down as unchangeable. I have no right to change or disregard Scripture. But I think you‘ll agree, we all have the responsibility to test what we hear against Scripture. That‘s what I‘ve tried to do regarding the conventional teaching on hell. I am trying to be more Biblical, not less - more faithful to God, not less.

Martin Luther had to do this regarding issues in his day (not that I‘m comparing myself to him!). Martin Luther King Jr and Desmond Tutu had to do the same. Whether it was indulgences or racism ... both were accepted and even defended as being essentially Biblical, and those who questioned them were called troublemakers, heretics, rabblerousers. These reformers questioned the conventional understandings, not against Scripture, but based on it. So please be assured - I‘m not trying to change the meaning of Scripture: I‘m seeking to find and understand it.

Just one example for those who haven‘t read the book ... why do we assume that condemn, judge, not enter the kingdom of God, and send to hell all mean the same thing? What if they mean different things? By equating them, we run the risk of misunderstanding Scripture.

So many Christians quote verses from Matthew, Mark, and Luke about hell ... but they are careless when it comes to asking, "What sends you there?" They believe in a literal hell, but they don‘t preach what Jesus preached would send you there; they tend to preach that not believing what they believe will send you there. Again - this isn‘t an attempt to be untrue to Scripture; it‘s an attempt to be true to it. In the book, I have a pretty long table listing the various consequences of various bad behaviors from the gospels ... I hope this demonstrates respect for Scripture, not a cavalier attitude.

Dwight - I loved the way you put issues of judgment in relation to the relationality of God. This is a very different picture from either a) the idea (amazingly common among American Christians) that God chooses some people to be saved from hell but tacitly chooses others to be forever tormented there, or b) the idea that God hates people who sin and can not rest unless they are tormented eternally.

Ryan - your question about the idea of Satan is interesting, but I‘m rusty on the historical background. Can I recommend you read Walter Wink?

Rob - I‘m sorry you feel that I treat Scripture and the Christian tradition in a cavalier way. I hope you‘re wrong, and I hope that if this is your opinion of me after reading two of my books, you‘ll at least keep praying for me ... even passive-aggressive people need prayer, you know?

Everyone - thanks for your kind words. I‘ll check back later this week to see if there are more comments/questions.

This is a great group of people gathered around the table with Dwight! - Brian

Written by: brian mclaren at 2005/05/10 - 00:46

Ron - about your dog. Don‘t shoot him. Just don‘t let him bite the neighborhood kids or make a mess on your carpet. He‘s protected you from some mean intruders in the past, and it sounds like you‘ve trained him pretty well. If/when he dies, keep a picture of him; he‘s part of your life!

Written by: brian mclaren at 2005/05/10 - 00:49

Brian - thanks for your honest response. Dwight and I both teach at Mars Hill Graduate School - so I think it would be a great one to look into. There are a number of other good options too - more and more ever year, as I think (thanks be to God) that more and more seminaries are breaking out of some old ruts.
Written by: brian mclaren at 2005/05/10 - 03:49

Hi, all - I just wanted to check in once more and see if there were any other questions. I‘m glad I did - Sky, your post was helpful to me. I‘d love to know where the first quote came from - if you have an author or reference. Strongly stated!

My sense these days is that the Western church got off track way back there somewhere (largely becoming preoccupied with "juridical" imagery, as Sky‘s quote said, and losing or downplaying all the other rich Biblical images of salvation - healing, rescuing, marrying, welcoming home, etc). To find our way back to the path, we are wise to listen to our Eastern brothers and sisters. (We also need, I think, to listen to our brothers and sisters from cultures that were trampled by colonialism, but that‘s another story for another time.) Maybe this is one of God‘s clever uses of our schisms, a way that (as Ecclesiastes says) two are better than one ... when one person (group) falls, he can be lifted up by his companion. Woe to the one who falls alone (or who won‘t accept help from anyone outside his little tribe!).

Thanks again, everyobne, for good conversation. Thanks Dwight, for hosting a safe and interesting place.
Written by: brian mclaren at 2005/05/11 - 03:15

From Chris Monroe: Guest Blog: The Last Word and The Word After That

Hi, all - great questions! Here are some brief replies ...

Q:
Brian,
Do you think there is still an appropriate way to talk about hell without it meaning what most churches today intend it to mean. Would it still be appropriate to use it to imply God’s judgment on things that are unjust in today’s world, and things that are in need of restoration?
If not, Do we need to find a different way to talk about the need for justice in the world?
-Shane
Posted by: Shane Pavlak | May 9, 2005 07:36 AM

A: Shane - great question. Here's an analogy. We need to teach the passages of Scripture that talk about slavery. But every time we teach them, we also need to teach how they have been abused, and we need to give some narrative context so people understand what they did and didn't mean to their original hearers. I think we need to do something similar today regarding hell. Meanwhile - yes, we need to talk much more (in my opinion) than we've been doing about judgment - that we all are accountable to God, and that right now counts forever.

Q: Brian - what sort of response have you had or do you expect from the Catholic community?
Posted by: Lorrie | May 9, 2005 08:00 AM

A: Lorrie - the Catholic community has a wide range of people, just as the Protestant community does. There are "religious right" Catholics, left-wingers, liberals, moderates, etc., etc. I've heard from a few conservative Catholics who respond very much like Protestant fundamentalists. I've heard from many Catholics who appreciate what I'm doing ... one priest, for example, wanted to take a character from The Story We Find Ourselves In and create a parallel trilogy for Catholic folk.

Q:
In dialoguing with Reformed (Calvinist) friends, how can I discuss hell/heaven and get around their insistence on God only "saving the elect"?\
Posted by: kristen | May 9, 2005 08:39 AM

A: I think this is risky. For some reason, there seems to be a higher percentage of highly aggressive people among Calvinists (in my experience, at least.) More temperate Calvinists need to urge their brethren to become less pugilistic and more charitable, imho. But if you have Calvinist friends who are open to rethinking ... I'd begin with the idea of election. I discuss this a bit in "A Generous Orthodoxy."

Lesslie Newbigin (the great British missiologist) used to say that the greatest heresy in the history of monotheism is a misunderstanding of election - namely, that election is to elite, exclusive privilege. No, he said - election is to service and even suffering: we are chosen to serve for the benefit of others, not to the exclusion of others. We are chosen not just to be blessed (in this life, or the next), but we are blessed to be a blessing to others. All this flows from the original calling of Abraham. (See "The Open Secret" for more on this.)

This radical rethinking of the meaning and purpose of election opens the door to a lot of other ideas. N.T. Wright writes helpfully about this too.

Q: Brian, thank you so very much for all of your work, it has helped far more of us than you will ever realize. I have enjoyed certain things about each of your books, but what I really appreciate about this new one is that it is a topic almost everyone is interested in. Although I wanted to recommend the other 2 to others, not all of them would be helped by them. With this newest book, you don't really have to explain anything about postmodernism or emergent, you can just the book out.

I recenly watched a documentary on the history channel on the history of hell,which really helped a lot to go along with your book.

As you have discussed this topic before, what seems to be the biggest or most common criticism that you have received? Thanks again.
Posted by: Benjy | May 9, 2005 09:46 AM

A: Thanks, Benjy. I saw that history channel show too - I wish it had been available when I first began my research - it was hard to find anything on the subject! The most common criticism ... "Who do you think you are to question something the church has held without diversity of opinion forever?" The assumption behind the question, by the way, is flawed - there has been, from ancient times to contemporary times, a persistent "minority report" on hell. I'm not the first and won't be the last.

Q: Brian, I think the book will indeed open up the dialogue re: hell. It's a concept that is sorely in need of deconstruction. So, I have two questions:

As people grapple with various understandings of hell, justice, judgment, etc., how can we encourage them to embrace the inherent theological 'tensions' associated with these themes and avoid seeing them as being mutually exclusive?

The book's character, Dan, (probably like most folks), tend to want things 'nailed down', yet scripture repeatedly seems to underline the mysteries of our faith, bidding us to trust more deeply. Learning from views other than our own goes both ways, right?
Posted by: Chris | May 9, 2005 01:10 PM

A: Great questions, Chris. I think Paul's writings on "eating meat sacrificed to idols" (Romans 14-15, I Cor. 9-10) are very instructive. I'd begin by having people grapple with those passages (especially interesting when correlated with the Jerusalem Council in Acts). Paul doesn't require uniformity of practice or opinion ... he does require common commitment to love. (I Corinthians 13 wasn't really written for weddings - but for churches with diversity of opinions, practices, and gifts!)

If we acknowledge this diversity and learn to hold both our opinions and our communities in love ... I think we'll be able to learn more, appreciate mystery, and maintain humility.

Q:
So far (I just finished chapter 21), this book is a lot more challenging than the others I've read (the first two in this series and Generous Orthodoxy, which introduced me to you). You wrote that you'd like to know the most difficult and helpful (or in some cases, both, I've found) things we've encountered in the book.

I am humbled to admit that Peter's use of Tartarus was a shock, and I found myself wishing that I didn't know that. ....Posted by: Eric | May 9, 2005 02:15 PM

A: Eric - ah, yes. This is the downside of education. It leads us into discomfort at times! Some describe the move from naivete to disillusionment to a new, higher, tested, wise simplicity (the second naivete). I hope you'll find a straight path to the second naivete as you continue to pray, think, dialogue, etc.

As an analogy ... I have an oft-quoted article that talks about Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz. This doesn't imply that I believe they are real historical people, right? Can the Bible writers similarly refer to stories or concepts from their times and not be expected to be affirming of their complete historicity?

Q:Brian,
my friend desertpastor asked that I stop by and say hey.
Hey. overall i've really liked your stuff. I must say I was surprized by Generous Orthodoxy (how much i really liked it) and a little disappointed in The Last Word.
I just really think the exchange between Neo and Dan where you have Neo explain to Dan
"But what about when Job says something about knowing that his redeemer lives and asserting that he will see God in the flesh?"

Neil replied, "I think Job is saying that he believes he'll recover from his terrible illness and be vindicated--not as a soul in heaven but in this life, in his own body. At least that's how I see it."

Is so incredibly lame. And that the bad part is that EC and POMO folk will now use Neil's answer to Dan as some sorta Dead Sea Scrolls way to explain away Hell.

You usually talk about the question being more important than the answer, and that answers arn't all that neat. You must have forgot that pages 46 thru 50 something.
Overall you say some really good stuff. But you need to be more careful. I mean some of the folk I know treat your words like they're inspired.
Sigh.
If nothing else you are making Christians think.
God knows that needed to happen.
Love you in Christ.
I'shalom
Seraphim

A: If we had time, I'd like to know why you think that Neo's response is so lame. Be assured - I believe in resurrection! But I don't think that is necessarily what Job was talking about. Taken in context of the whole book - he's not very exccited about saying, "Yeah, it's OK that I'm suffering because in heaven it will all be better." Don't you agree?

But listen - if you hear anybody taking my words as more than just one guy's honest thinking - which is tentative, fallible, and never to be taken as more than that - please tell them I don't approve!

By the way - please be assured that I'm not trying to explain away hell! I'm trying to properly understand it's history, meaning, and use by Jesus and the apostles. An important distinction.

Posted by: brian McLaren | May 9, 2005 05:17 PM

The Harambee Podcast

Thanks to Rudy Carrasco for making this podcast available where Andrew Jones talks about "emerging church". Some notes by Charles Wear. go ahead and click on and download this MP3

Comments on Emerging Church or Emergent

I've been leaving comments quite a bit lately on other people's blogs .. I thought I'd just share some while linking the original posts.

On A Question of Church (1)

while I was driving to work today .. my mind was thinking about how all this may translate in Malaysia.

Karen does wonderful job highlighting the incarnation and the trinity. I lean along the same lines.

I was thinking how I found it helpful to start with Jesus - thus incarnation - life, death, resurrection and ascension.
then consider the Spirit especially in the creation of the church. And then back into how all this is realized in the world and benefits the world - thus like going full circle back to the Creator. It's walking through the apostle's creed but starting with the second article, then third and then back to the first.

am I making sense or just rambling? :-)

On A Question of Church (2)

I agree that history is important .. much has gone before us. My concern in a place like Malaysia for example that there are some who advocate a "calvinist" or "reformed" agenda maybe too tighly (as if it's timeless) where as I'd prefer to respectfully engage whether it's our Lutheran, Reformed or methodist heritage (that came with the missionary package)not that rigidly taking seriously the timeliness of the context of the reformation for example.

I think then I don't have to uncritically accept everything, and not throw all of their insights out and act as if I'm starting from scratch. because the reality is I'm not!

On Emergent divergence
Sivin Kit said...

This is another crucial point, I'd shout yes! My first intro to Brian McLaren was "The Church on the other Side" and some personal emails. Then after having better online access, I discovered a much wider discussion on the "emerging church" - like in Australia and New Zealand, and of course UK. I think being "conversant" with the others like Dan Kimball (liked his charts!), Andrew Jones (awesome blogger), Tony Jones (enjoyed his practical theology bent), Doug Pagitt(I'm less familiar until I read his book) is paramount ... then there's Jason Clark in the UK (who has become a personal friend). I find the dynamism of having them as "conversational partners" to be very helpful. At least, to keep the global feel of my personal reflections.

But then again, because of the profilic publishing (traditional as well as internet) in the west, we hear more of you and you hear about what we think here in Asia, Africa or South America :-) Hopefully that will change soon.

another spot on observation!

On Missional and holistic
sivin kit said...

Thanks for your excellent interaction with Carsons' upcoming book. As an Asian (more specifically Malaysia Chinese) 33year old pastor in a mainline Lutheran denonimation :-) I was first drawn into the emergent & wider emerging church conversation because of the "missional" & "holistic" emphasis and posture. I was aware of the "postmodern" context discussion and I've eavesdropped quite a while and found it helpful. But when all is said and done, the discussions on epistemology though are important are not what I relate to the most. Thus, I think your point in this post is spot on!

The Emerging Church: The Old Church Made New

Thanks DJ Chuang for this article by Tim Dearborn, The Emerging Church: The Old Church Made New. It's encouraging to read from a western American perspective how the emerging church in Asia, Africa and Latin America can impact American Christianity. So, has the age of genuine, level, equal conversation and partnership begun? I suppose both sides already have people working on it ...

Here's some statements and stories that caught my attention:

"... Obviously, the world is messy and the church complex. Any generalizations are suspect. To attempt to categorize and distinguish Western evangelicalism with the emerging Christian movement in the two-thirds world is laden with hazards. If there are indeed two streams, at times they flow together and at times flow in divergent directions. Much of the world church is flowing in a stream toward the Western church, attracted to American evangelicalism with our affluence and technology, our emphasis on individual freedom and fulfillment and our entrepreneurial zeal. Just as the world imports western pop culture and seeks to emigrate to gain access to western affluence, so it adopts western church forms. I’ve sung “Shine Jesus Shine” in 7 countries on 3 continents in the past year. The Jesus Film, Purpose Driven Life, Prayer of Jabez, Maxwell’s Principles of Leadership and Alpha are omnipresent in the world. Unquestionably God is using these tools. However, they risk imposing Western cultural and theological forms. They risk participating in the Western imperial rule. Recently a group of mission leaders met in LA to design web-based strategies of evangelism. When someone cautioned that they needed to make sure their messages were culturally appropriate, the leader of one organization retorted, “If it’s good enough for America it’s good enough for the world.”

Yet at the same time, there is a current moving away from the West—concerned about our individualized, consumer-oriented religion. There are several distinct marks of this church:

1. It is digging deep into traditional cultural forms, rejecting Western styles of church life and theology.
2. It is highly charismatic, relying on the Spirit rather than money
3. Anointed leaders guide its life, regardless of their academic training; generally with high authority and conservative morality.
4. Worship is a dramatic encounter with the power of God, rather than a passive and comforting moment of education and encouragement.
5. Its community is a gathering of people rather than a cluster of programs and activities.
6. Mission is a daily encounter with the demonic and evil, conducted through spiritual battle, suffering and a holistic engagement with the world; for all of life is deemed as the domain of God, with social, economic and even political ministry integral to church life.

... I met last year with 25 rural pastors in Zimbabwe. Their average monthly salary was $10. They carried to our meeting one of their three books, their Bible. (Their other two had recently been given to them (and most of the pastors of southern Africa) the Prayer of Jabez, and Maxwell’s Principles of Leadership. Many walked for two days to get there. When they discussed the life of the church in their region, I had the clear sense of meeting with the ekklesia theos—the people of God called by the Spirit to conduct the affairs of the community. Penniless, these pastors—Pentecostal, Salvation Army, Catholic, Anglican, Baptist, African Indigenous Church, and Adventist described their vision and the activities which were transforming their community. Their vision wasn’t merely for saving souls, but the care of AIDS orphans. They didn’t concern themselves with constructing church buildings—most met in schools, under trees, in sheds. Rather they were building wells, clinics and model farms.

... The emerging church lives under the sign of the cross—not as a source of comfort and as a protector from harm—but in recognition that it is called to share in Christ’s suffering. This church is well content with weakness, rather than pretending to coerce and conquer with campaigns and might. The gospel of the emerging church isn’t simply the good news that we’re forgiven, but that we’re called to a new kind of life that puts us in conflict with the empire. I read recently that Martin Buber, the Jewish philosopher who has inspired millions with his brilliant book, I Thou, near the end of his life, confessed Jesus as the Messiah. However, he never called himself a Christian and refused to identify with the Church, saying “I cannot see what the Christian Church as an institution has to do with Jesus Christ.” (quoted by Graham Kings, Christianity Connected (Zoetermeer, The Netherlands: Boekencentrum, 2002:270).

... A Hindu leader recently met with the village heads in a community where World Vision works in India. He warned them to watch out, lest World vision staff try to make them Christians. They replied, “if you saw how they lived, you’d want to become a Christian too.” We are called not to love in word but in deed and truth. If we say we love God, then we will love our neighbor. The world will believe in Christ by our love for one another. Taxi drivers are my favorite social commentators. Recently I was speaking with one riding from the airport. He was an emigrant from Ethiopia, having been here for four years. I asked “How is the America of your experience different than the America of your dreams”. After a few cautious remarks, he said, “the biggest surprise is that I had thought the Gospel would have made a greater difference on American life.” He went on to explain, “besides driving a taxi I’m studying nursing at North Seattle Community College and work as an orderly in a nursing home. All the staff comment on how you can anticipate by the quality of care from their family a resident will receive by their nationality. Asian residents are visited almost every day. Eastern Europeans are visited at least weekly, but we have Caucasian Americans, who even though family members live in Seattle, are only visited on birthdays and holidays. In Ethiopia we believe the gospel is about community and love for one another. America is a very religious country but it doesn’t seem to have made much difference.”

... The emerging church is dynamically creative, with new forms and patterns which she believes are inspired by the Spirit, rather than the fruit of human education and skill. A few years ago I visited The Church of the Divine Canal, in a medium size town in the Dominican Republic. The pastor received a vision of a canal of living water pouring through the church into his town. The church prayed together for weeks to discern what this might mean. Convinced that this was from God they renamed their church and prayed that the Spirit would guide them, pouring living water into their town. What were the first acts they believed God wanted to do through them to bring living water to the town? Nothing I would have ever imagined. Their town lacked a fire station. When a building caught fire they had no way to save it. So, the raised the money and petitioned the government to give them a fire truck and created a volunteer fire department. Living water to put out real fires! Their next act was to create a public park, which their town lacked, resulting in many children being injured or killed by trucks while playing in the streets. Living water in children’s paddling pools!

... Though I don’t commend their strategy I admire the passion of a group of Korean missionaries in India last year who disrupted a major Hindu festival attended by over two million Hindu pilgrims. Their loud and aggressive proclamation of the gospel in the midst of the crowds was finally silenced by their arrest and deportation. When interviewed they expressed profound disappointment, for they had hoped they would have been killed and claim martyrdom. I prefer the response Kerry and I received from the mother superior of a Missionaries of Charity center we visited in the midst of a horrific slum in Calcutta. When asked if the sisters’ lives were ever threatened during their work in the slum she said, “Of course. Always by disease and sometimes by violence. But they took the eucharist this morning. They are prepared to die.”

...
Last year Kerry and I worshiped at Nairobi Chapel on the Sunday in which their long-range plan was announced. The church gathers business leaders and slum dwellers, people from myriad cultures and even nations. Arriving only 10 minutes before the service began, we had to worship outside the walls, through the open windows—along with 100’s of others. And the vision? For a new building, more staff, a larger budget? No. The vision was that over the next decade God would work through the church to raise up Christian leaders in the 250 most influential positions in the government, businesses, media and educational institutions of Kenya. It was for a dozen new churches in Nairobi and 10 internationally. It was for better schools for children, greater justice in their nation, and end of corruption in society. They didn’t only have a vision. They outlined detailed plans. This is the life of the emerging church.

... we have an opportunity to let the emerging church in the rest of the world shape and transform our way of life and worship. I believe we need them to help us learn how to respond to the deepest hungers of people in our own western societies—the longing for a vibrant spirituality, for moral clarity, for embracive community, and for a solid enough reason to live that it is not threatened by suffering or death. Perhaps one of the greatest missionary challenges of the coming decades is for missionaries from around the world to help churches emerge in the West, at the heart of the empire, faithfully to follow our Lord. This indeed, is already happening, with hundreds of dynamic churches emerging in Western cities pastured by people from abroad."

In the eye of the Emerging Storm

Here's some not so random links for those who are following the "discussion" or "conversation", I'm eavesdropping to hear, and keeping my eyes open to see how my western brothers (and sisters) work this out .. :

The Emerging Storm: DA Carson, Andrew Jones and Scot McKnight
Thanks Stephen for a little outline

An Open Blog Post for Don Carson 1.0
We probably heard of open letters but this open blog is one unique blog ... if D.A. Carson responds that would be really cool and better on the credibility of his critique. How media has changed the speed and in some ways the rules of discourse.

The Carson Chronicles - Where Now?
This is quite a fascinating sequence of events now with Prof. Scott McKnight who's blogging at Jesus Creed entering the picture. Which reminds me if i could manage to encourage those teaching in Malaysian seminaries to blog that would be a great "achievement" in 2005 :-)

emergAnt: The Skinny on the Global Emerging Church
Andrew Jones is definately another voice (apart from Brian Mclaren) that I've been followign with interest the last five years! Both are worth listening ... of course there are a variety of voices out there ... these are the ones I've emailed or met face to face : Jason Clark, Tony Jones, Karen Ward , those on the emergent-US blog, a wider feel is found in Planet Emergent, etc.

The Emerging Conversation: Unabridged
This is a good place to begin hearing the different voices. Good questions with good answers.

what is emergent?
a sample three minute response

Just who is emergent, anyway?
another interesting attempt to give some framework for self-identity

So what is emergent?
Another attempt I stumbled into .. :-)

Emergent is not the Emerging Church
Ah .. my friend Jason Clark tries to make things clear from his angle.

It's quite exciting to see how dynamic this "emergent" and/or "emerging church" thing has become. of course, with the so called "criticism" that has come in one way or another it forces people who are involved in the conversation to work on clarity when we've enjoyed the under the radar "creative space" thus far.

when I first was in touch with this conversation five years ago and throughout, I actualy enjoyed the low-profile-ness or this whole thing, especially with the internet .. there was a kind of freedom just to listen to thoughts (especially in blogs) and also interact with people in the English speaking Christian world from USA, UK, Australia and New Zealand ... plus other surprising contacts here and there. I can see well able people "giving a reason" (or "defense" or "clarification") for why and what they are doing (as you can read in all the links above). As for us here in Malaysia, we're still very much just getting started to get ourselves a little more organized and connected.

It's interesting to see how all this will turn out in the next 5 years time. 5 years ago I didn't expect this .. much of the pleasant outcome as well as the not so pleasant ones. But then again, what's next is equally going to be surprising isn't it?

As usual the Asian, Latin American and African voices are still pretty quiet. And maybe some like me are quietly observing our western counterparts. As for me, it's still it's very much still one step at a time ... I don't want to be too distracted by this "storm" and yet I cannot "ignore" it as well.

Are we a threat to the Gospel?

Andrew Jones updates us by saying here at Are We A Threat to the Gospel? (Restored) "This is getting a little unwieldy. Can we keep in mind that this is not a matter of baptist church VS emerging church but rather Mohler VS McLaren. And remember that Mohler does not speak for all Baptists, just as McLaren does not speak for all in the emerging church."

Now, I hope we don't import any "battles" here to Malaysia. I see Brian as a friend (long before he was a big deal) and a voice worth listening to and engaging from a worldwide point of view - kind of a in between scholar and lay person way. To be honest I never heard of Mohler until this year (opps!), I suppose I'm more familiar with Lutheran giants then Baptist giants. Or maybe I've just been hanging out with Lutheran and Baptist misfits :-) I have heard Don Carson in a Bible Exposition context in Malaysia, and from the response there is an obvious hunger for what he shared during that time. I'm also more aware of a growing interest and alignment with more "reformed"-"calvinist" theology in my personal contacts. More than one I've met probably might be called post-pentecostals or post-charismatics (for lack of better terminology). So, i read it as a kind of pendulum swing for some. I suppose I was swinging there as well but had a more Arminian-Methodist theology lecturer who was also frustrated with the "captivity of ecumenical and evangelical Asian theology to enlightenment and modern categories" and a wonderful Christian Spirituality lecturer that introduced "the best of Roman Catholic contemplative traditions". And maybe in my subconscious hidden Lutheran mind somewhere, I've always been biased when it comes to Calvin and his decendants. But then again, I love to quote Calvin's "The human mind is an Idol Factory".

Of course, my deeper hope is that we in Malaysia (and Asia) will enourage more of our own to speak up and allow our voices to be heard and in the process mutually learn from the best that the east and west, north and south have to offer - we may be post-western in the words of prof. Lammen Sanneh but we are not anti-western. I know this sounds idealistic ... but there's a whole lot of realism that goes with that hope.

Whatever it's worth, Thanks TallskinnyKiwi for another alternative voice ... I was pretty fascinated also by how emerging southen baptist church leaders wrestle with this here. I find myself eavesdropping in the discussion but cautiously refraining from getting sucked into any "battles". Need the energy to "construct."

an introduction to emergent (malaysia)

here's from the point of a first time new comer to our conversation last Saturday,
"an introduction to emergent", I manage to put in some comments to encourage further conversation. Ah .. that word again, I was reminded by what Brian McLaren said some time ago .. and I agree with him especially in our context here in Malaysia, "Right now, Emergent is a conversation, not a movement,We don't have a program. We don't have a model. I think we must begin as a conversation, then grow as a friendship, and see if a movement comes of it."

___________________________________________________________________

an introduction to emergent I was at CPK's place for a church camp committee meeting on Saturday. Over satay and pizza, I posed this question to him, "How would you describe the Emergent movement in a simple concise sentence?"

Seeking clarity as to what Emergent is all about is a pretty futile attempt. Brian McLaren, the author of the book A New Kind of Christian, resists calling Emergent a "movement". "Right now, Emergent is a conversation, not a movement," he says. "We don't have a program. We don't have a model. I think we must begin as a conversation, then grow as a friendship, and see if a movement comes of it." [1]

Despite its seeming lack of structure (at least not one that we normally associate with), Emergent does seem to thrive in exactly what is missing. The absence of formal boundaries does make way for open, honest conversations between fellow believers and friends about the various issues pertaining to the Christian church today.

I had the privilege of participating in one such "conversation" last Saturday at Bangsar Lutheran Church. After breakfast at Taman Tun post-Kiara, we found ourselves drawn to the informal meeting that we had heard about over the grapevine...dirty, sweaty bodies and all. Hopefully they'll welcome us in, just as Jesus welcomed even the lepers...heheh

After a brief welcoming address by Sivin Kit, the man I understand to be the main contact for Emergent Malaysia, this guy, Kia Meng shared his story and the lessons about his faith that he had picked up along the way. Later, we broke into smaller groups of 3 - 4 to share our respective stories, with the question "What Does it Mean to be a Christian in Malaysia Today?" providing some direction.

Looking around, it certainly looked like many interesting conversations were happening in the various groups. Keith and I were in the same group, together an Ipoh lass going by the name, Wan Ching (Ipoh gals seem to be EVERYWHERE these days!). Coincidently, we all share the commonality of being involved in youth ministry. With that common ground, we shared our concern in seeing the youth in our churches growing up all groomed to be "cultural Christians" (not a term that anyone mentioned that day, but one that I feel encapsulates the idea of being moulded by our surroundings and circumstances), yet not engaging in a real relationship with God.

We also heard some of the other groups share their stories at the end of the session. I think the general consensus was that the world is changing i.e. "the modern, colonial world is coming undone and a new postmodern, postcolonial world is emerging". [2] The challenge today is for the gospel of Christ to remain relevant to a generation that carries very different beliefs and values, and which requires different approaches, as compared to the generation that lived say, 20 years ago.

To quote McLaren, "Can I still call myself a Christian if I don't buy the whole package of what many call Christianity today, which includes a lot of modernity and has little to do with authentic Christianity?" [3]

Still, the waters should be tread carefully. I'd better be praying about this.

***

References

[1] Andy Crouch, "The Emergent Mystique", Christianity Today, November 2004, Vol. 48, No. 11, p. 36.

[2] Emergent Village, http://www.emergentvillage.com.

[3] Glenn T. Stanton, "The Postmodern Moment", Christianity Today, June 2002, Vol. 46, No. 7, p. 53.

jv. made his mark here @ 6:25 PM

Emergent - Lutherans?

Emerging Leaders Network
so this is what fellow Lutheran Karen Ward is up to with her friends! We're pretty aware of the spirit of Luther, "here we stand!" then "Now it's time to walk ahead together" Here's what they are up to:

"ELN seeks to be a community of friendship, discernment and theological conversation among emerging Lutheran leaders.

ELN connects leaders who are currious about and committed to sharing principles, practices and imagination for mission and ministry in the emerging cultures.

We seek to explore faith and life in our times, not within the familiar strictures of a modernist "organization," but within an organic and networked community of missional friendship and spiritual discernment, rooted in the lutheran theological tradition.

This site itself will be a 'living active and breathing thing...' a breeding ground which will follow, explore, and possibly lead the church into the emerging future."

Lutheran - Emergent: What can one say to the other?
I must say there's a lot worth checking out inside that cowboy hat! My "intuitive" feel is that there maybe some untapped perspectives that can be gained from how the Early German Pietist sought to bring renewal within the post-Luther-Melancthon heavily Scholastic Lutheranism ...

Here's some things I could relate to ... even though we're miles apart,

"Lutherans also have a hard time in how congregations relate to one another. We tend to be either lone rangers (as churches and as pastors) or part of/ reacting against a hierarchical, top-down driven model of denominationalism (that is thoroughly modern and business-llike, even if the model is one that is "baptized" by liturgical theology). Emergents could teach us a lot about mutual accountability, non-hierarchical networks, and "organizing from below" in ways that maintain responsibility and authority but are also extremely responsive to local conditions and promote leadership that is servant-like and committed to resourcing and supporting mission more than preserving a denominational organization (which is precisely where the ELCA is right now)."

I found Eric's comments in an earlier post, simply "captivating" ...

"One of the things that fascinates me about the "emerging church conversation" is that it shares with Lutheranism an attempt to articulate the Gospel of Jesus Christ and call people to faith in him, in ways that explode the prevailing intellectual/ theological frameworks of church life in their respective days. For Luther, it was the medieval scholatic/ Aristotelian world. For Emergent, it's modernism. In both cases, the power of the Bible's witness is seen as blunted and even twisted by the background assumptions made as it is read by the dominant expression of the church. Luther would get enraged at how his opponents would use biblical words and concepts, but in a philosophical framework that had nothing to do with the biblical narrative. Medieval philosophy had hijacked the conversation. Luther saw the eschatalogical, relational, and dialectical (law-gospel, diagnosis-prognosis, or threat-promise) aspects of the Bible's witness that were ignored by theologians of his day. Emergent folks see the consumerist, individualist, "faith as right doctrine not as right relationships vertically and horizontally" (as opposed to "right doctrine as guide to right relationship"), and the serious constraints put on the meaning of "truth" (what I like to call "truth is only what you can see on a National Geographic documentary or prove on a math class blackboard") in modernity as problematic."

Learning in Story

My friend AL has a way with words(and we always have fun how we use terms and phrases) and I appreciate how he captures our Emergent Malaysia gathering last Saturday in his own words. I fully agree with him that "Christianity is not just good for dying" ... it's good for living! Timely during this Easter Season!
________________________________________________________________

Read on in Learning in Story

If there’s something new (therefore refreshing) yet ancient (therefore less dubious than one might initially expect), it’s the phenomenon of story.

At the third Malaysian Emergent gathering (what a mouthful, eh?) at BLC last weekend, it was great to see, yet again, stories taking centre stage.

The Emergent Church Movement (ECM) advocates the patient listening and validating of people’s stories. Conversation needs to take place. We must hear people out and ‘suspend judgment’ on ideas our theological systems may reject, no matter how ‘awfully false’. What for? Because there may be no other way to learn from them, to give people space to voice their doubts and experiences, to minister to them. In a word, to connect. Without genuine listening, there may be no genuine relationship.

Kia Meng’s personal story (the first story of the day) was insightful as to how multi-dimensional and wavy and fluctuating real Christian experience is. How often do you hear, within a space of ten minutes names like Francis Schaeffer, NT Wright, John Piper, Brian McLaren and Menno Simmons all juxtaposed as part of a holistic experience?

He shared how he started with (and felt disillusioned by) popular Pentecostal ‘power’ theology, particularly the view that if healing did not come to a person, it’s likely due to that person’s lack of faith. He then found some measure of theological solace in Reformed theology, with its pantheon of certainties, foundations, creeds and so on. I must say I found this rare: A Pentecostal ‘converting’ to Calvinism?

But this is life, this is real, this is as candid as candid can get. No one’s trying to fit anything into some piously acceptable and politically right scheme here. If nothing else, perhaps the ECM could be seen as a return to honesty: honest doubt, honest stories, honest fears, honest pain, honest questions.

Kia Meng has – and this is where I envy him tremendously, *grin* - personally met up with both N.T. Wright and Brian McLaren, two ‘giants’ of the faith in quite different ways. Wright is a British theologian cum historian who’s presently redefining the landscape of ‘Historical Jesus’ and New Testament studies. “If Jesus is Lord, then Caesar is not” – this was the phrase (what Wright believes accurately summarizes the early Christians’ “politics”) which, according to Kia Meng, reminded him of the power and need of the gospel to transform the world not just ‘spiritually’ but in socially redeeming ways.

As per Dallas Willard, Christians need more than 'bar-code' faith.

Brian McLaren, on the other hand, is an American pastor who’s postmodern innovativeness and deep compassion for people gradually led to the creation of the ECM. It seems he, McLaren, approached Kia Meng and Yew Khuen, wanting to know more about them, their culture and even their dialects(!).

I think McLaren’s actions in doing so i.e. in reaching out to, and being genuinely interested in, those (like him) who may be ‘minorities’ (in some sense at least) spoke more than many a theological treatise or sermon. Maybe this was a snapshot of God’s goodness expressed unexpectedly through a person.

(Incidentally, McLaren has been getting some bad press of late. His book, A Generous Orthodoxy, has stirred up more than a little fury among, primarily, Reformed evangelicals for being theologically 'corrosive' and obscure. Propositional clarity, in their view, decide the value of theological discourse. It's therefore nice to see a conservative like Craig Blomberg classifying McLaren's work as helpful to those keen on "developing the kind of community in the church of Jesus Christ that our Lord himself seems to have desired." i.e. community-building and relationships determine the value of God-talk.)

For Kia Meng, perhaps, the encounter with McLaren possibly reaffirmed his conviction that the gospel of Jesus Christ involved the ‘radical inclusion’ of those our ‘natural’ selves wouldn’t rush to accept as part of the community. Instead of 'Vampire Christianity' (Willard again, highlighting the bite-and-leave evangelistic tendencies of many Christians), we perhaps should pursue 'Guide Dog Christianity' i.e. a stay-and-care (and listen carefully!) kind of faith.
For his openness and observations and intellectual giving, I thank Kia Meng. I was reminded, brother, that Christianity isn't only 'good for dying' (smile).

Posted at 02:17 pm by alwynlau

Links with the E buzz word

Lutheran - Emergent? Shared Realities
I'm reading this because I'm connected to both.

Church in a multicultural society
-- Emerging church in multicultural society 2
-- Emerging church and multicultural society 3
I need some stretching ... and listening to one who's on the groundmakes a whole lot of difference.

Twist of Faith: Emergent churches attract worshippers with alternative religious experiences
wow! more press coverage with what's happening in the west. It's interesting to see the variety especially when it comes to forms and yet an underlying ned to connect the past, future and present in a meaningful way.

Emergent Malaysia conversations on Holy Saturday

"Emergent is a growing generative friendship among missional Christian leaders seeking to love our world in the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

Our dream is to join in the activity of God in the world wherever we are able, so that God’s dreams for our world come true. In the process, the world can be healed and changed, and so can we." ~ Emergent Village Website

To be honest, every time we manage to organize a meeting inviting friends to come and participate it's hard to know what to expect. And then there will always be a surprise or two.

With a special "peace offering" from Jade - i.e. "Yau Cha Guai" (in Cantonese) and other goodies on the table, we stared introducing ourselves and telling in a sentence or two how did we land up here ... a couple actually said they didn't know :-), most of the others because we knew someone (or someone who knew someone), many of us are concerned with the changes that's happening in our churches as well as personal Christian lives in Malaysia, a lot of us are already on the emergentmalaysia Yahoo! group , of course there were returnees from our previous Christmas party and/or the kind of maiden meeting in 2004 last year.

It's quite amazing how it just started with 3 guys sitting in a room talking about some common concerns and the authors we've been reading (of course a number of emails to and fro). But, everything has got to start somewhere right. We honour small beginnings.

"Emergent seeks to create space where people who might not ordinarily interact with each other can gather and engage each other in areas related to theology, practices, culture and how churches and organizations engage missionally for the sake of the world. In order to do this we must assume a posture of openness, humility and desire. We must believe the best of one another. It's not that we won't or don't disagree (often vigorously) but rather we maintain the Spirit of Christ as we do so." ~ Emergent Village: Conversation

Some of us had a chance to share our stories in last years meetings, and last Christmas we brainstormed a sampling of what we thought were important to us. This round we started with Kia Meng ("our resident philosopher") to share his story and some insights he's picked up about his faith (especially the transitions, people and church communities that impacted him). When you have words like "Charismatic", "miracles on demand", "personal struggle", "questions", "losing my faith", "language to express my angst ", “Vampire Christianity”, “Barcode Faith” , etc combined with names like "Francis Schaeffer","John Piper", "Vineyard", "George Ladd", "Dallas Willard", "Brian McLaren", "Jason Clark", "Big Kahuna", "NT Wright", ""Mennonites", etc all in one interview (which I just prompted). This is one story worth listening (and still very much in the making - unfinished yet!) I think it was Nouwen who highlighted, "what's most personal is most universal" (something like that! *grin)

I was glad Liz with her advanced typing skills could record a kind of draft transcript of the interview and a number of "open" questions and interactions that emerged (*smile*) from his sharing. Once our emergent Malaysia website is ready hopefully we could post it up!

One close to heart concern was "evangelism" and how that really works out in a variety of circumstance (e.g. for "our neighbors", "children", those with disabilities, ect). This little interaction even strengthened my resolve to work on what I learnt 5 years ago from William J. Abraham, author of the Logic of Evangelism when he said, "The great need in evangelism is not for some new program, not for a fresh wave of activism, but for a renewal of theological vision and a reworking of our basic conceptuality" My intuitive sense behind the practical aspects of "evangelism" highlighted was this need that Prof. Abraham tallks about!

Later, I passed around this Missional Evangelism Booklet from another interesting similar kind of "network" the ekklesia project to a number of people (I still had some copies around). More stuff in there.

Then we broke into smaller groups to share our stories - with Yew Khuen giving us a simple framework from listening to practicing and then listening again (the cycle goes on)

Being the "facilitator" I had the freedom to eavesdrop and interuppt different groups and it was pretty facinating how these dynamics work.
Each group of at least three and not more than 4 (to facilitate closer conversations) and one person who tries (I repeat try) to be the scribe capture the conversations on paper.

After we drew the "conversations" to a close, we opened it up again just to listen to three groups share a sampling of their conversations. This included issues relating to "youth" growing up in a so called "Christian subculture" and then once "set free" (usually after going overseas for studies) realize that the faith they were brought up had no connection with their everyday life in the world.

BTW, there was limited use of lingo like "postmodernism", "postcolonialism", etc. Only a number of times with qualifiers. Due to the variety of individuals present from me as a pastor, to an "ordinary" lay person (which I think coming to a meeting like this is not ordinary!) as well as small groups leaders, worship leaders, Christian fellowship leaders and potential leaders, I strongly felt we needed to try our best to "include" all present as much as we could.

Another interesting thing is to take note of the Christian traditions kind of represented there today. We had for lack of better labels (or just using common labels) - Brethrens (which was a delightful surprise!), Lutherans, Methodists, Charismatics, Reformed, ... etc. Someone cheekily said, "semi-Lutheran", another quiped, "I'm a hybrid." And then all of us laughed because we are all pretty "Rojak" in a way (To our English speaking Global friends: Rojak is a kind of mixed vege & fruit dish). Indeed these labels carry less meaning nowadays. But it did help for humor at times.

having some form of record was very important, so we could go deeper beyond our last conversation and also trust that the time spend would somehow "change" us for the better.

I just took note in the booklet I mentioned above (which I gave a few copies out) comments on "Faithful conversation":

"Faithful conversation is multi-layered dialogue. As such it involves self-respect: a knowledge of and respect for one's own beliefs and positions, and self-exposure: an acknowledgement of and openness to the other as other, as distinct and different. And perhaps most important, a willingness to get caught up in the to-and-fro of the dialogue that participants may be profoundly changed in the midst of the process."

There's more and I think I learnt that today as I tried to discern the "language" that each person used to express themselves (I'm thinking about myself as well). The following is worth considering:

"... faithful conversation does not depend upon all members of the congregation (note: in our case participants in today's meeting and beyond) speaking the same language (whether ethnic, professional, cultural, or theological), but upon their openness to the koinonia of the Holy Spirit active and present in their midst."

I believe this happened today in many ways. And I'm thankful also for the post-meeting lunch conversations as well. Oh yes, I did manage to do my very best in describing what we're trying to do "Malaysian style" summarizing the info (and contextualizing it a bit)

like unpacking "growing generative friendship among missional Christian leaders" as well as what probably can be called the emergent order or commitments so we can move together locally as well as globally with friends on a similar journey.

On this Holy Saturday, as I remember that we're in between the Cross of Good Friday and the empty tomb of Easter Sunday, in this space of silence between two significant events of our lives, we gave ourselves to listen to one another and in the process I pray we heard God's voice for us in our time and context here and now in Malaysia. I loved what I read yesterday and I think the phrase itself is enough to energize me...

'It Is Finished' But It Is Not Over"

Emergent Msia 1st Open Meeting 2005

Well our so called emergent malaysia Christmas party was fun last year and a good opener. But we needed to get some focus. And I suppose after a few months, some of us have a better sense on how we can move forward. Anyway, if anyone in Malaysia or more precisely Kuala Lumpur or klang Valley area please feel free to pop by.

We're using a simple "title" to get us going: "Vertigo: What does it mean to be a Christian in Malaysia today?"

26th March 2005, Saturday 10am
at The Father's House,
23, Jalan Abdullah off Jalan Bangsar.

Here's a map and contact.

An Interview with BRIAN McLAREN

Well .. I suppose we better let him speak for himself. And he does so very well anyway. It's nice of White Horse Inn to give away free this complete interview with Brian. Listen and decide for yourself.

Emergent Village - Extreme Makeover!

I really like the more-than-a-face-lift Emergent Village Website (I can see more stuff added as well as revised to give us a better picture). Check out the Emergent-Us blog too!

wow! And now ... how shall Emergent Malaysia proceed huh? One step at a time ...

Emergent - Malaysian Style Xmas I

I like what Tony Joneswrote for the Worship Leader Sidebar about what is Emergent?, I think we can be seen as part of "the friendships with church leaders around the world, all of whom are on a similar quest of rediscovering the gospel in their contexts."
_______________________________________________________________

Emergent is a fairly loose gathering of pastors, artists, missionaries, church planters, songwriters, bloggers and others who are engaged in a quiet revolution within the church. Disaffected with the reified structures and theologies of both the Protestant "Left" and "Right," a dozen of us began meeting together in the late 1990's, and as our work has become more public, many more have joined in. Currently, we are forging friendships with church leaders around the world, all of whom are on a similar quest of rediscovering the gospel in their contexts.

About 18 of us met at my place on December 18th Saturday. Quite a number of new faces this round. Sadly, the pastors all couldn't make it except me (due to a variety of understandable reasons). And Alwyn missed it the last minute. Joel and Elise Vestal were special surprise guests who gave us some input and personal sharing on their journey and ministry which was good to avoid this turning out to be just about us Malaysians!

Of course, we started late ... but with food. There was quite a variety from chicken to duck, Pringles to fruits, curry to pasta, etc. Nice that everyone (most at least *smile*) brought food "offerings".

We did have a simple ice breaker just to introduce ourselves and sang a couple of Christmas carols. It's Christmas season! Why not? We mustn't take ourselves too seriously until we can no longer sing, right?

The flow from the start was good .. people laughing, and saying "I've been reading your blog" can be disarming. :-P

Then we got into something more serious and yet broad enough to get the brain juices flowing and some "conversation" going ... a simple question: "What do you think is important for Malaysian Christianity to wrestle with?" (something like that) and then we tried some more personal questions like "what are you passionate about (possibly hoping you can contribute to Malaysian Christianity)"? The questions were general enough to start the ball rolling. I'm sure we are not the only ones asking them or have asked them but the dynamics and the flavour of the discussions had some "Emergent" flavour I suppose (i.e. more systemic, cautious of a quick fix, very conversational, etc).

We had three groups ... a decent mix of men and women. Our youngest was 17 years old (he just finished his high school exams!) our oldest was eh-hem people in their early thirties! It was interesting to take note our many of us got introduced to what is now called the "emerging church" or "emergent" conversation through different concerns from the need for more holistic experimental woship to more conversational evangelism, from reading Brian Mclaren's books to reading one anothers blogs.

After individual groups shared with one another, we had brief reports with others chipping in. Everyone had a chance to listen what others had to say and ask questions.

I have the Mah-jong paper with me and took some digital photos of the input from these guys and gals. All the answers were in very lay-human and grassroot lingo. Nothing ivory tower here. I joked that some of those present can complicate the language a bit and send it to our Asian theologians for comment.

After the "official meeting", many still stayed back for more "conversations" which usually unearthes other goodies.

so it was not just about food and fun ... all came bringing their contributions. The contributions in the "conversations" were most precious of course, then new connections in relationships as well as insights. More in another post ... time to pick up son and wife!

Emergent Criticism

For those who have been following the conversation, I think you'd appreciate the following two pieces:
1. Emergent Criticism No.1: 7 Years of Spanking by Andrew Jones
2. The Emerging Storm by Stephen Shields

For those who haven't been following the conversation, I suppose you're always invited to join if you like. For some of us, we're meeting this Saturday 3pm at my place, we'll leave the criticisms aside for now (we haven't even started to talk and listen more yet), and get on with some fun and food.

New kind of Christian: Brian McLaren's Emergent voice

Here's a quick link before I head off to Port Dickson ... It seems Brian McLaren and "Emergent" is getting more publicity these days. Hmm.... here you go ... New kind of Christian: Brian McLaren's Emergent voice

The Emergent matrix: A new kind of church?

So finally the article we've been waiting for ... The Emergent matrix: A new kind of church? with favorable comments from Maggi Dawn (From UK) and Tony Jones (From USA)

This will be my bed time reading tonight .... (in Malaysia.)

The Inclusive Church

The Inclusive Church Conference 2004 is on the move. It's a A three-day conversation with Brian McClaren, Steve Chalke & Jason Clark exploring theology and action in emerging culture.

I wonder whether our friend Jo is the only Malaysian there ... and then She's also Chinese as well as a woman! Three cheers for Jo. I'm anxious to hear what's going on there.

Thanks to Doug Pagitt for a glimpse of Johny Baker has posts on the event too ... check out gospel and justice and inclusive church

The Lost Pomo debate

Thanks to Andrew Zirschky for making The Lost Pomo Debate: Jones, Kimball, McLaren, Duffy & Chap duke it out at YS 2003 available.

Emergent Cohort CJ "sample" meeting

Thanks to Tony Jones for the link and Adam Cleave a chance to peek into and eavesdrop what's happening on the other side of the ocean at Central Jersey, here

The Emergent Mystique & Response

I'm slow to post this up partly because of quite a crazy two weeks but here it is The Emergent Mystique and a personal response from Andy Crouch the author of the article thanks to Tony Jones (this where the Internet and blogland is fun!)

Another conversation with Brian

Thanks to Abductive Columns for the link to A Conversation with Brian Mclaren conducted by the provokingly named Church Marketing Sucks! (Will read it before I sleep tonight)

A Primer on Emerging Church?

Thanks to Chris Erdman for these insights ... (I must say the past four years has been a great ride for me in terms of re-entering the Bible and do some serious hard work theologically ... side by side with an openness to "innovations" & "Improvisations" .. I love the "Jazz" metaphor ... plus I feel not only am I not finished yet, I just got started!)

Well, understanding postmodernism is one thing, understanding the emerging church phenomenon may be another. There's a good deal being written in emerging church circles that tends to be pretty silly...that is, untethered to anything substantial. It can be terribly fadish and experimental, which is not a bad thing so long as it is understood this way. Stanley Hauerwas (theologian from Duke) once remarked to his students who so quickly wanted to depart from the tradition: "you don't know enough about the tradition in order to depart from it!" I think this can be true in emerging circles. Folks, disenchanted and disenfranchised with traditional Christianity haven't done the hard work of understanding history and theology. Luther and Calvin were reformers who understood such things and were competent to challenge the errors of what had become of the tradition.

While I celebrate the new openness for the gospel that comes because of postmodernism's questioning of Modernity, I am not a postmodernist. What I mean here is that postmodernism cracks open the church's captivity to Modernity so that we can re-enter the Bible and do some good hard work theologically. In this sense I am a theological conservative. Memory of the tradition is vital, but I am also extremely open to innovation that "does jazz" on the tradition. As any good jazz musician knows you cannot improvise unless you "know your scales" and have rehearsed them over and over again. There is a "ground" necessary for good improvisation and experiment. There is much that tries to be music but is simply noise in my ears

I think understanding what the Lord is doing to birth new expressions of the kingdom today means understanding how we got here in the first place. In my mind, Lesslie Newbigin's little book, Foolishness to the Greeks has pride of place. If you're looking for a more expansive survey . . .

I'd recommend David Bosch's, Transforming Mission: Paradigm Shifts in the Theology of Mission (he does biblical and historical work and charts a course for missional renewal after Modernity).

Then you might want to understand how people critique the place the church has occupied in the last centuries. For an entry into this I'd suggest Willimon and Hauerwas' book, Resident Aliens.

And finally, reading testimonies of the experiments in newness can give witness to emergence...but these experiments must not only be new and technological; they can also be experiments like Bonhoeffer's little school for Confessing Church pastors in the 1930's, George McLeod's experiment in Iona, Scotland that began about the same time, Brother Roger of Taize's experiment that began in the mid-1940's, the Focolare movement that began around a Roman Catholic nun in France following the war, the Catholic Worker movement around Dorothy Day, and on and on...it would also be interesting to explore the monastic movements in the early church, and the organization around St. Benedict in the seventh century. All of these are expressions of Holy Spirit emergence at times when the church became to captive to the Powers. You see, emergence is not just happening among GenX and GenY, but has been happening whenever and wherever the Holy Spirit has seen captivity and has found some daring enough to try new forms of missional obedience. Among the GenX, etc. Brian McLaren and Doug Pagitt are thoughtful,and I'd certainly add Tom Beaudoin's book, Virtual Faith to the list. Len Sweet rings a hollow note to me and frankly I'm not exactly sure why. It may be that from all appearances he is merely a reporter on what he observers. He's a very capable and entertaining reporter, to be sure, but he doesn't seem to have have real and personal ties to a Christian community to which he is yielded...that is, he is apparently not deeply embedded inside living, local commuties and therefore while his reporting is interesting it doesn't speak authentically to me.

As to other able interpreters who are writing today Alan Roxburgh and Darrell Guder would top my list. But there are many others who would be helpful too--Wendell Berry on economics and environment, George Lakoff on politics.

My reply to Will on the "E" words

Willzhead asked me "What do the words 'emerging' and 'emergent' mean in that context?" (I presume our context here in BLC, KL/PJ, Malaysia)

Here was my quick reply which he said made sense ...

I think for me "emerging" is (1) more of a description of the reality
we're in - i.e. we a young four year old church is "emerging" and we
as a Malaysian church is still "emerging" (thus avoiding a static
arrived image or mindset) (2) I guess building on the first and
somehow tugged in the back of my mind is something you wrote as it
being a "value"

Does all this make sense?

Emergent Malaysia Notes (one more)

I'm delightfully surprised by the responses "generated" by our so called first pretty informal gathering actually. Even thoughts from some one who missed the meeting like My Tightrope had some worthwhile questions feeding our future conversations here Emergent Rising and Knees Knocking..., and I thought I was going to have a day of rest today, turned out my mind is still on overdrive! Here's an excerpt from his post:

What is exciting me most about the "Emergent" movement is the rethinking about our relationship and (to use an increasingly common word) conversations to God and to everyone. Sounds almost cliched but that is exactly what is needed. A rethinking needs, no pun intended, to be thought out. In this particular loci of time, when theology, good and bad, is becoming more prevalent among the masses, when religiosity is giving way dogmatic deconstruction and when our elders start to squirm in their seats and wonder about the good ol' days.

Where then is the balance? How do we emerge the church in the greater society while holding on to the non-negotiable commandments lest syncretism creep in? How do we balance the touchy-feel conversations and keep our relationships real and fruit bearing to other people looking in? How does the Emerging Church fit into our tapestry of cultures, filial bonds and moral-tradition codes and how can it be relevant without the frequent bumbling Christian toe-stepping evangelism approach? Lotsa questions and lotsa looking forward tos.

Emergent Malaysia Notes (dua)

"Dua" means 2 in Malay. Here's another set of notes and a comment from an overseas friend, I like the "the Church is always “emerging” everywhere around the world. " phrase which is why we decided to jump in and join the party!

From The Confessions of A Hedonese

Had a most stimulating conversation at Bangsar Lutheran Church in the first Emergent Malaysia meetup last Saturday. It's a great pleasure/privilege to meet up with Sivin and other online frens who share a passion for theology and mission

From CS Lewis, we know these qualities can co-exist in harmony to the glory of God and the good of man!

From Steve K.

Is the “emerging church” just a Western/American thing? I think not. In fact, the Church is always “emerging” everywhere around the world. Brian McLaren has been writing some fascinating stuff about the “post-colonial” church in Africa. Another part of the world that I have a great love for is southeast Asia, and I’m excited to pass on the news that there is a growing movement in Malaysia. My heart and my prayers are with my brothers and my sisters in that part of the world.

Emergent Malaysia Notes

These two individuals just have the amazing ability to construct beautiful paragraph art pieces with words. In short, they take better notes than me! Here goes some excerpts ...

From Messy Christian's Emergent Malaysia's first meet (click the link for some cool pictures from her point of view)

Wah, sound so grand but actually it's just a couple of folks getting together to tell their stories. It was a 'safe' place to confide, hence therapy - something I didn't think the meeting could be.

The fact that we could do something with our way of looking at Christianity and our faith and affect some kind of change was exciting. (The ability to create change is a big part of who I am.)

From Alwyn Lau's Story Loci

It was a lively session, facilitated by Sivin (who, if I'm not mistaken, sought to 'deconstruct' the Asian inclination towards silence! *grin*!). Met up with my Hedonese pal whom I haven't seen since, well, some time, and who introduced me to the phrase, 'evangelical Muslims' (how about 'emergent Muslims', some of whom we may be seeing at the UMNO General Assembly this past few days?). Also present were Messy Christian (who boldly kicked off the conversation by sharing how relieved she was that her questions didn't prove her 'weirdness' - in some ecclesial eyes, at least - but have in fact been pondered on seriously by many emergent authors, e.g. Kimball, McLaren), Yew Khuen and his fiancee ("I'm here because of her," said YK who also added with a grin that there's something profoundly true about the statement), pastor and church-planter Alpha and his wife (from whom some of the best lines of the day were spoken, e.g. "Emergent represents church history in the making", "We ought to care for the 2 and 3 as much as we care for the 2 or 3 thousand"). Delightfully, there was one theme constantly, err, 'emerging' which kept the stories united, giving everybody common ground, that of how drums were equated with 'revival' in some churches! (And do I hear somebody thinking of African tribal music?!)

Emergent in Malaysia ... baby steps

At first I thought could it just be me? I dont't think I'm the only guy who resonates with a big chunk of the stuff in Emergent Village right?

Then some emails exchanges transpired. The next thing is three of us young men met up - three pretty good looking I must say (all praise to the creator! *grin*) Three coming from quite different starting points but with common questions and apparently converging on a similar journey and of course one must mention some interests sparked by Brian McLaren and NT Wright and some other cross-interests here and there (actually there was a fourth one - most "cool" looking chap actually was and still is stuck in UK at the moment, we await thy return oh philosopher).

We lay silent for some time ... but began blogging (or tried to) but the emails, the phonecalls, and whenever possible face to face meetings but usually separately. A five guy somehow got "included" ... then later started blogging I had the honour of meeting him for the first time today ... we tried hard to try to meet together but then ... it was just typical Malaysian schedules (read - busy! - for all sorts of reasons) I also noticed the lack of female participation here and I was the only pastor (which I didn't mind)

And then off I went to UK and then later Germany for a month this year. Upon my return I just did a jump first, fear later and we finally fixed a meeting and asked some interested females and other friends to meet up ... had interest even coming from those who read this blog.

Some could make it, others said maybe the next round, one fell sick and others due to other reasons. I was happy three wives turned up (that increased female participation immediately together with another three ladies! Thus a total of 6) One Toddler and one baby were eaves dropping ... and the 6 of us guys
(wow! it's the number 12 for adults! )

Not bad for a start ... let's see what's going to happen when we meet again in November 6.

Now, I have 101 things I'm reflecting on ... all in all ... Thank you, Lord. My heart is full of gratitude as well as a load of questions to ponder.

Future of the People of God

Thanks Jason Clark for pointing me to download a load of MP3s here on "The main talks given by Tom Wright at the Future of the People of God conference" (a nice bonus reflection by Jason is good reading too)

Another word of thanks to all those at Open Source Theology and Church_SHIFT for making these available to many of us who couldn't make it to the conference, a Big TERIMA KASIH (thank you in Malay)

Complexity Theory and Emerging Church

Thanks Maggi the link to these timely insights:

_____________________________________________

Emergent - M'sia ... baby steps

It's been encouraging so far ... slowly but surely some Malaysians who have shown interest in the past (on a personal basis) as well as new people whom I've never met (thanks for the emails!) are all "curious" of what the conversation is all about and would like to join the conversation on "What does it mean for us to be and do church in our Malaysian context?" (whether it's with the awareness of the postmodern discussion sparked off by our friends in Emergent Villageor even this idea of being in a post-colonnial context ... mentioned in my responseto Brian McLaren's Africa Report ... hmmm.. or just plain curious)

I read with interest The Skinny on Carson's Emerging Church Tapes 1.1 because of the critique (and possible misunderstanding?) by Carson and Andrew's steady response. This morning found The Emergent Church - Another Perspective: A Critical Response to D.A. Carson's Staley Lectures (pdf) by Dr. David Mills to Carson's critique very helpful

Personally, I find myself resonating with the vibrations of Emergent as expounded here , since "Emergent is a growing generative friendship among missional Christian leaders" and some of us have managed not only to interact online but also meet face to face which indeed has been enriching. Why not invite more to the table for the conversation? How about being more intentional about it?

The Complex Christ

I can't recall where I got the link (but thanks anyway!) I've read some of the free downloads and found them helpful to sharpen my own thinking on these matters. Here's a quote to help get a gist of what's in the book ...

"...what if the Church faced up to its fears, stepped down into the dark valleys and began to consider completely new ways of being? What if it explored the possibility of adopting an evolutionary - rather than a revolutionary - approach to change?"

The Transcript of an email conversation between Kester (the author of the book) and Ryan Bolger, Assistant Professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, covering the origins of Vaux, leadership and complexity gives some useful background and context where this book is coming from.

As I seek to explore what Emergent-Malaysia can spark or serve as a catalyst, and how all this works in a local church context such as Bangsar Lutheran Church (which is connected and part of a so called institutional denomination), this whole idea of "evolutionary" approach to change is a good thing. Plus, we in Malaysia have not really experienced what people term as "revolutions" in our historical contexts anyway (though some might have tried) .... hmmm ... brain juices bubbling ...

Emergent - Malaysia?

I once asked Jason Clark, "Who's the Emergent contact in Malaysia?" and he said (I can imagine the smile on his face), "You Are!" ... "Oh! I am? .... ok!"

After an interesting and encouraging conversation with a more senior and also wiser pastor who's serving and leading a presbyterian church, I suddenly felt the fresh urgency to maybe take steps to be more intentional about this. He even found me in the Emergent Village website whcih needs to update my contact *grin*!

Apparently, there are others like Messy Christian who has some thoughts aboutt the emerging church. I wonder whether there are more in Malaysia

Some of us are already planning to meet up on in a couple of weeks time just to get acquianted face to face better. The four of us has been in email contact, and some of us have been in touch in some other way. The common link humorously speaking is reading Brian McLaren books... :-) and the pastor I mentioned above was excited and challenged by the Church on the other side (which I think is a fabulous book and a great !) We've been sturggling for some time to try to get a kind of Emergent Malaysia co-hort get jump started :-).

So whatever it's worth ... allow me to try again ...and do a JUMP FIRST, FEAR LATER move. If there's any Malaysians overseas or here locally who's interested in the kind of conversations about how we can "be", "do" and "think about" church in our Malaysian context today and also get connected with other voices globally, please contact me..

I don't really know what to expect ... apart from surprises ... but deep down my passion and interest is to see these reflective conversations help us in constructive living, ministry and engagement wherever we are - especially in and through the church. We can all start from where we are :-)

Here are some of my sketchy scribblings and links (or just type emerging or emergent ans search the site *grin*), like all the stuff posted up in this blog ... all thoughts and feelings and reflections are not final but as always are works in progress:

We want to go far ... together!
In the church, but not of it ...
Is emerging only Western?
the new face of global christianity
Emerging Church ~ Thinking from Malaysia
Better late than never

So it's not about starting another organization .... but it's about creating "space" for us to take the first step or maybe a second step to where we believe God is leading us in the days ahead ... Emergent is about "A Generative Friendship Among Missional Christians Around The World" I like that, and I've experienced it personally especially through new relationships through the internet and more so face to face. So, I guess, what we'll do is what the following paragraph tries to explain ...

Emergent is a friendship. Becoming a part of a friendship is a quite different from being part of an organization. It's more like joining a conversation.

To join a conversation, you need to hang around and get a feeling for what's been said before you arrived. This involves listening, maybe asking a few questions (doing a little homework) at the sidelines of the main conversation. Then you wait for a good place to contribute to the conversation-with an apt question, an observation, a story, whatever. A friendship is always mutual: you contribute to influence and enrich others, and you listen and learn and are influenced and enriched too."

We want to go far ... together!

"if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together." ~ African saying

I read Brian's African Report with much interest. Strangely, he went south to Africa, I went North to Germany :-) I'm no Brian McLaren and have much less wisdom and insight to contribute *grin*. This humble chap has struck more than one chord in me with some of these reflections I'll pick out. I thought I'll just duet with them a little ... (Brian's words in bold, mine in italics)
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We talked about the gospel in a post-colonial setting. I truly believe that the way ahead lies for Christians in the global north (who face a postmodern transition) and those in the global south (whose transition is post-colonial) to be in close dialogue as partners. That dialogue began happening during our time together.

"Close dialogue" is going to be beautiful music. There's a place for "debate" I suppose (dissonance and tension is part of music too). But, before we get at each others throats, it's wise to listen with our ears and hearts, to learn even with so much "puzzlement" going on in our heards often sparked by "the other" and love in our words and deed the way we're called to be.

That little remark on "the gospel in a post-colonial setting" indeed resonates more with us here (at least in Malaysia) as compared to "the gospel in a post-modern setting". As a Malaysian (and Asian), I need to be more confident in working through how the Gospel is speaking into our context and articulating the way we're wrestling withthe issues that confront us. There's more work that needs to be done here especially at the local church setting to make time for the conversation on "the gospel in a post-colonial setting" vibrant.

I went to Africa with a hypothesis: that the conversation in America and Europe (and elsewhere) about the postmodern transition had a counterpart conversation in Africa - a conversation about post-colonialism. I come home very certain that these two conversations are part of one larger conversation, and that the larger conversation is the one worth having. This confirms my conclusions from similar experiences in Latin America over the last several years, and I hope to add Asia to my "research" in the next year or two.

"Your most welcome to come to Malaysia, Singapore is nearby, Brian!" :-)

I have also found a a kind of "freshness" in some of my conversations with a German pastor who's serving in our denomination as a Theological consultant. On one hand, Asians need to rise up and be heard and of course communicate clearly what are our real concerns are (either we've been too busy or too silent or both!). On the other hand, we need to guard against a kind of over-reaction and isolate ourselves in our own worlds (which is increasingly impossible) Thus, I agree with what Brian says about finding ways to get Christian Leaders from the four corners of the earth talking

The next step is to try to find ways to get Christian leaders in the global north and south and east and west talking. There´s a saying in Africa: if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. I trust we can go far, together with these emerging leaders from the global south. We have much to learn from their faith, their vibrancy, their courage, and their experience. And perhaps we can offer them gifts in return.

I feel really blessed to be part of some events that encouraged this kind of "talking" whether it was the Asian Mission conference last year, or the little connection I've had with those working in the Lutheran World Federation and especially the recent Summer School (and of course the bonus of meeting up with Jason and Maggi). Just the last month alone in Malaysia there were two events which I believe is supposed to encourage such conversations namely the International Association of Missions Studies conference and WCC's Faith & Order Commission Meetings. So, all these experiences make me feel the urgency for this kind of "close dialogue". I'm grateful for these "not so frequent" chances offered to me some how ... I'm sure God has his purposes in his divine wisdom for me to have these adventures (trying to sound "spiritual" here *grin* and yet I do believe He's surely hup to something though I'm not too sure about the details!)

I guess, the challenge is how can we have something that's more long term rather than just short term "highs". And most important for me, is how can these conversations really get to the "grass root" level especially in some ways in the local churches and pastors. And then how can we involve emerging leaders from those in their late teens, to twenties and people like me in our thirties :-)

The modern western colonial gospel was a beginning, for them and for us, with many strengths and weaknesses; now we must press on together to learn what the gospel "after modernity" and "after colonialism" says to us and our changing, dangerous, hopeful, unpredictable, needy, glorious, and gifted world. All we do as a local church here at Cedar Ridge is part of a larger symphony that the Holy Spirit is conducting around the world. May the music be beautiful, to the glory of God!

I was really touched by Brian's encouragement to Cedar Ridge (his church) and how what happens locally is part of what's going on globally. That would be my prayer for our young congregation too ...as well as every local church in Malaysia and beyond ...