Sivin Kit's Garden

Random Thoughts while trying to rest

I'm feeling a little better after a solid two day camp with about 30 youths at the Rawang Lutheran Church Chinese camp. Arrived last night around 1.30am. I enjoyed the late night drive. But one must be very careful because there are quite a view high-speed heavy vehicles!

I don't know how I managed with a severe sore throat at the camp. The campers were very gracious to me ... My mandarin wasn't great but somehow we could still connect. Again, a number of personal conversations were very precious and energizing - especially with those who are not Christians in the camp.

I noticed the "cultural" difference between the youth I engaged in the last 2 days and those I usually come into contact with in the more urbanized KL and PJ. The element of "respect" for example is so much stronger amongst the youth that I met in this camp- more communal as well ... less individualistic.

Had a good breakfast with Gareth today ... he had his "Big Pao" and I had my Nescafe. It was good to re-connect with my son. tonight hope to re-connect more with my daughter. She was pretty much asleep last night when i returned. I was pretty much asleep when she left with May Chin this morning. Happy to re-connect with my wife of course, let's not forget the amazing one!

But, rest I must get .... refreshing is a must ... another camp this time more intergenerational and family oriented... and also I suspect I need to swith my "cultural" lense again - to a more English speaking Malaysian setting. Ah ... before doing anything more ... i shall feed myself and sleep.

It's hard to rest "in-between" two camps (heavy speaking and interaction kind of engagements). I admit .. maybe because I don't go just as a professional speaker ... I tend to invest a significant part of myself in relationships with those in these camps (even though for some cases it's more short term then long term) - and all this needs energy. And I'm only human - limited.

and there's some other family engagements around the corner ... I'm looking forward for my kind of first family holiday for the year 2005. And looking forwards to pause, "defragment" myself and "re-organized" priorities, and relook what potentials and watch for limits.

Random Links 41

The Monastry
who knows they might bring in the show to Malaysia? Alexander Campbell has a nice summary of Tony's Story

Deep Ecclesiology 2.0: History
I'm following this with interest. If deep ecclesiology has it's focus "rather than favoring some forms of the church and critiquing or rejecting others, we see that every form of the church has both weaknesses and strengths, both liabilities and potential.” Then I think it's a promising concept to see in practice.

THE LOCAL CHURCH IN MISSION:BECOMING A MISSIONAL CONGREGATION IN THE TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY GLOBAL CONTEXT AND THE OPPORTUNITIES OFFERED THROUGH TENTMAKING MINISTRY
The Missional congregation caught my attention ... and tentmaking bit is a bonus! With paragraphs like this .. I'm listening .. and feel extremely encouraged, affirmed and challenged ... Read on,

"It is our deep conviction that congregations both in the West and in the Two-Thirds Worlds must make the transition to become “missional congregations”. Just what is a missional congregation? Missional congregations are those communities of Christ-followers who see the church as the people of God who are sent on a mission. To a large extent their identity is rooted in what they do apart from a church service or a church building. They cease to yield to the Christendom assumptions that the surrounding culture will naturally want to come to church, or that coming to church is the goal of all mission. They no longer see cultures in terms of Christian and non-Christian. Instead all cultures, be it the historic West, former colonies of the West, or countries with little Western contact are all equal candidates for mission involvement. These Christ-followers seek to embody the way of Christ within their particular surrounding cultures and not necessarily within the four walls of a church building or service."

"It seems safer to remain in our congregations and hope people will come to us. Maybe the safest place for the church is to be where Jesus is."

The Ten Commandments for Reducing Stress

These are timely words for me to put into practice ... thanks Kitty Cheng for the reminder.

1. Thou shalt NOT be perfect, nor try to be.
2. Thou shalt NOT try to be all things to all people.
3. Thou shalt leave things undone that ought to be done.
4. Thous shalt NOT spread thyself too thin.
5. Thou shalt learn to say NO.
6. Thou shalt schedule time for thyself, and thy supportive network.
7. Thou shalt switch off, do nothing, regularly.
8. Thou shalt be boring, untidy, inelegant and unattractive at times.
9. Thou shalt NOT even feel guilty!
10. Especially, thou shalt NOT be thine own worst enemy, but be thy best friend.

Random Thoughts while having a stomach ache

it's been a tough week .. coughing, sneezing and now stomach ache ... I really hope I'll be able to pull through this coming week ... in one piece - kyrie eleison.

we had an enjoyable semi-formal combined LiFe Group today .. simple food - just Satay, fried rice, Pizza, Hokkien Mee, Mangoes. Lai-chee+100plus Drinks, fried fishballs and sausages ... used had very fruitful conversations on "Learning" - spinning off to topics on Mentoring, styles of learning and the difference between knowledge and wisdom. The kids were having a good time .. and it was good to connect with newer as well as older friends.

I'm glad I survived this morning's talk/message for Full Gospel Assembly Youth event "Just guys". physically it was hard as I stuggled with a weak body. A youth came up to me later and encouraged me that he felt God speaking to him :-) and his time here was worthwhile. I remember coming to this church as a youth with May Chin for a youth conference so it was quite a feeling to now come as a speaker.

Preparing for the message tomorrow has been nourishing ... and I found the notes by Brian P. Stoffregen and Richard Donovan both affirming and helpful.

I feel a little better now ... and hope to finish off final preparations for the 2 day Chinese speaking youth camp with a bunch of about 30 youths. I'll be cutting down on this kind of engagement for the second half of the year. It's a Lutheran camp so I'd like to do my bit ... but I'm finding myself stretching a little too much nowadays. Time to readjust for more long term health and effectiveness.

This means practicing how to say "no" nicely - seek for better ways to achieve our common goals together ... REALLY looking forward for a holiday soon.

Random Links 40

10 Questions for Brian McLaren (via ChipSmith)
Here's what the interviewer says about the interview, "This is a very long interview. I had planned to edit it, but I would've done it an injustice in so doing. So if talk of postmodernism bores you, scroll down to the segments on the media and especially his views on the religious right using the government to censor television. You'll find him thoughtful and provocative."

Deep Ecclesiology 1.0
It will be fascinating to see how Andrew Jones fleshes out the concept.

D. A. Carson: Becoming Conversant with the Emerging Church
ah .. this book again ... but Ryan Bolger from Fuller Seminary has quite a lot to say!

McLaren: A Response to The Last Word and the Word After That
Scott McKnight chips in his intellegience to help us along :-)

not feeling so good ... will sleep after watching the Making of Star Wars III.

Table Talk

I was very excited facilitating the informal dinner at Little Penang Cafe at Mid Valley whicih later moved to Starbucks tonight. I'm missing from the picture (which I don't mind really!) because I'm capturing this moment.

I felt it was a good mix ... On the left Rev. Tang (who's interest includes contemplative spirituality & church history), next to him is Pastor Chan (who's interest is in his words politics & public theology) both are the Chinese speaking pastors of our denomination. On the right, Dr. Truscott (who''s focus is on historical theology - specifically on Chrstian initiation & liturgy as well as Cathecumunate) paying us a friendly visit and Rev. Greininger (who's interest includes theology & practical ministry) our close friend offering perspectives from America and Germany respectively (with insights from their experiences in Japan as well as Papa New Guinea). This is the kind of dialogue, laughter, conversation and interaction that I find so nourishing and fun!

We moved in and out of all kinds of topics from Malaysian food to our ministry experiences, some joys and frustrations with our contexts and observations. We talked about Christian Initiation, affirmation, rites of passage, llturgy and it's relation in a communal faith as well as a link to the world we live in. We tossed ideas on what it means to work constructively and creatively, how we can engage people who do not use overtly "theological categories" but think more in "practical categories" (I borrowed this insight from listening to Doug Pagitt last night ... very helpful). Of course, I admit there were not many conclusions that we came to ... but that's the nature of conversation ... in it's informality we are given space to allow our minds to try out different options and directions.

I believe we will use different contexts and opportunities to settle on some more concrete answers, work-in-progress models, and flexible strategies or steps forward. So, it's nice to bring my fellow Lutherans together representing in someway the east and the west, academic and pastoral, theological and practical, etc. I find joy in "creating" or "facilitating" environments like this.

I could imagine a little how Luther's table talks were ... just a little. Maybe not so much in form (coffee replaced beer in this case) but definately in substance!

May the Farm be with You

Thanks to empyreum for this link. It brought laughter to my otherwise frustrated afternoon.

Emergent Convention 2005 - Input

Of course, I'll carry on my "imaginary conversation" slowly .. because it's going to be a busy two weeks for me .. I'm trying to be an "unbusy" pastor ... but I will fail upfront these two weeks as far as busyness is concerned. Loads of repenting and realignment after these two weeks :-) after a good few days in an Island for holiday (yippiee! more on that later)

Here's some blogs I'll be checking out ... for glimpses of the convention and whatever that will spark from there..

Adam Cleaveland - nice chronological approach.

Dan Kimball - one of the few emergentYS line authors who blogged about the convention.

Susie Albert Miller - I think my first link to her was something related to intergenerational concerns ... will check her out more.

Aaron Klinefelter (Aaron also has worked hard so we could listen to the podcats provided by conversatio fide)

Will Samson - he threw in some interesting reflections which I hope to engage.

Mark Oestreicher - facinating insider view.

Jay Voorhees - loved the Kitty photo he posted up .. and I think I'd introduce him to my Methodist friends :-) and the Gregory of Nyssa Quote he has on his blog really rocks!

Emerging God - a new blog I've been following.

Latina Liz - with a recomendation from Rudy Carrasco I realize I need to check this blog out for a wider perspective!

Preference: Critique or Conversation?

I've always found it hard to enter into a "critique" mode ... I find it hard to do a book review and offer a critique on the authors ideas. By this I don't mean I've tossed out the need to be criticial or as a person I don't easily dish out criticisms. What I'm saying is it's just "hard" and in some way a more "draining" exercise for me. I know we can't swallow everything we read or hear. And we need to be on guard especially when in our Malaysian context there's a greater tendency to just follow the crowd, ot the trend or what pragmatically works. So, there is a need for IMHO some kind of "healthy critique" mode we need to operate at some point. And thus, "Critical thinking" is not to be eliminated. But, somehow ... it's not as energizing for me ... necessary at times but not so prefered most of the time. If there's something I disagree with, there's a tendency that I'd "critique" it in general (as in not personal) and probably just focus on what I find "connection" with ... and put more energy there.

That's why the whole "conversation" mode appeals to me so much. For stuff I'm ignorant I'd rather be silent, or ask questions, or wait and give some time before I say something. And then, at times even suspend judgement for a while (I know that's hard because internal battles go on in my mind during this stage), learn some patience - give the other some space to continue. When engaged in "conversation" mode ... I think the "critique" element is there but not so much at the forefront .. so as not to stop the "flow" of conversation. A lot of restraint is needed so there's meeting of minds, ideas, and possibilities at some point. There's a kind of "safety" in this kind of environment ... and yet there's definately potential for "change" to happen ... not in a head on collision way often when one is in a "critique" mode, but more in a subtle way where it's not the other pressurizing us to adpot their view point .. but the listener given space to make adjustments or alignment themselves. Very likely, it wouldn't be exactly as expected from the speaker but it's "change" nonetheless.

So, I prefer "conversations" without ignoring the need to "critique" when needed. But I suppose it's more about what comes to the forefront ... a more level ground "conversation" marked by much restraint, space and patience - allowing the "critique" mode to be more subdued while not extinguising our critical faculties .. emphasizing the relational dimention of truth-engaging, or knowledge-exchange with a strong accent on the human face than just dabbling in the exchange of ideas and disembodied knowledge.

I'm not sure how much sense I'm making here ... but ... it's therapeutic I must say. :-)

with all the above off my chest, I'd like to continue with much appreciation to many bloggers who blogged their notes, feeings and insights ... from the recent Emergent Convention 2005 in Nashville. As one who was unable to make it for obvious reasons of distance, I find myself in no position to offer "critique" but it would be fun to pick some aspects and have an "imaginary" conversation with stuff that just "resonate" or "connect" (that's the fun this whole internet and blogging experience offers) so, on with the conversations ...

The Blogger's Prayer

Thanks to Chronicles of William for bringing up to surface again this prayer ... :-)

The Blogger's Prayer 1.1 by Andrew Jones (June, 2002)

Our Father
who lives above and beyond the dimension of the internet

Give us this day a life worth blogging,
The access to words and images that express our journey with passion and integrity,
And a secure connection to publish your daily mercies.
Your Kingdom come into new spaces today,
As we make known your mysteries,
Posting by posting,
Blog by blog.

Give this day,
The same ability to those less privileged,
Whose lives speak louder than ours,
Whose sacrifice is greater,
Whose stories will last longer.

Forgive us our sins,
For blog-rolling strangers and pretending they are friends,
For counting unique visitors but not noticing unique people,
For delighting in the thousands of hits but ignoring the ONE who returns,
For luring viewers but sending them away empty handed,
For updating daily but repenting weekly.

As we forgive those who trespass on our sites to appropriate our thoughts without reference,
Our images without approval,
Our ideas without linking back to us.

Lead us not into the temptation to sell out our congregation,
To see people as links and not as lives,
To make our blogs look better than our actual story.

But deliver us from the evil of pimping ourselves instead of pointing to you,
From turning our guests into consumers of someone else's products,
From infatuation over the toys of technology,
From idolatry over techology
From fame before our time has come.

For Yours is the power to guide the destinies behind the web logs,
To bring hurting people into the sanctuaries of our sites,
To give us the stickiness to follow you, no matter who is watching or reading.
Yours is the glory that makes people second look our sites and our lives,
Yours is the heavy ambience,

For ever and ever,
Amen

Star Wars Delight

It was a pleasant surprise to actually get the chance to watch the final installment of Star Wars.

I was delighted that I didn't have to line up to get the tickets ... being a replacement for someone who couldn't make wasn't that bad :-)

The timing was ok since today I had a friend as guest speaker and May Chin was kind to "release" me ... It was great to catch the trailer for The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe (on the big screen). The potato chips before the show was good. We had good seats. I was a little tired. But the movie was fast paced enough to keep me engaged. There was a sense of completion .. or fulfilment ... in a way that now I could piece together all the 6 episodes with a kind of unity. When i drove home I thought of actually one day (or one week) just to watch it in sequence and see how it feels ... from Episode I to Episode VI rather than how we have followed the story thus far IV, V, VI and then I, II, III. Just a thought.

The 3rd Postmodernism?

Increasingly the term "postmodernism" or "postmodern" is cropping up in our conversations here in Malaysia or a recent seminar in Singapore actually had a workshop on it. When words are used to "exclude" or as yardstick of whether you are ok or even as a "trendy cool" word then it's harder to engage in genuine interaction... but if it's used to invite participation, generate thought, stimulate further discussion, then bring it on ... why not?

This made me check out some links and especially relook at Brian's article on "The Three Postmodernisms: A short explanation" and see how he tries to bring it to a level where some engagement is possible.

Of course, I'm hearing a pastor-evangelist or even a missionary posture speaking here more than a scholar (though Brian's stuff is always smart and thoughful) using the final part to keep things in perspective and on the ground:

"As a follower of Christ, I am less interested in articulating the ideal definition of this movement in words than I am in helping contribute to what the postmodern world becomes in reality. I am hoping that many people of faith and vision can play a formative role in what will happen beyond modernity and adolescent postmodernity: seeking to be salt and light, seeking to do good works, seeking to do justice and love mercy and walk humbly with God.

In other words, the best answer to the question, “What will happen with the emerging postmodern movement?” is this: “It depends on people like us.”

When I look at the postmodern landscape, I see “fields ready for harvest,” as Jesus said. But so far, in spite of so much being at stake at this critical moment in history, those willing to get out into the fields and do the hard work of seizing the moment are too few. There are plenty of critics who stand at a safe distance on the modern road that runs beside the postmodern fields, shouting their criticisms and warnings. Instead of joining them, you will, I hope, pray to “the Lord of the harvest” – so that more workers will become willing to jump into the action and get their hands dirty in the postmodern fields, making visible the good news of Jesus."

Random Thoughts after 7pm

Elysia definately didn't inherit my hair style .. I could never keep my hair up like that! Miss her ... hope to have more time tonight .. I love it when she goes into "conversation" mode. I love "conversations" whether it's infants or adults.

It's strange how when someone decides to open up nothing will stop them, but if someone chooses not to open up no matter how you "persuade" them it won't happen. At times, I wonder whether I could handle what is "entrusted" to me during the moments of sharing ... it's so delicate .. it's an honour ... but very "fragile" - we must handle with care. Thank you Lord for that grace today.

Strange how people come up with "answers" (read "excuses") to justify why they revise or did not do a particular "instruction" which was clearly given. Worse is when some "preachy-spiritualistic" flavour is thrown in. And they assume pastors or perceptive people won't see through such "nonsense". I realize I fall into the same trap when i'm not careful ... Help us Lord .. when we're plain lazy or simply messed up - or just should have bucked up.

when will we just give up the "need to control" others ... or that false illusion that we always "need to be in control" ... life is just so unpredictable, hard to keep it neat and tidy .. of course, we don't simply go and "mess" things up ... other people of unseen factors are already doing a good job turning things upside down ... it's strange once we give up "control", things actually can settle down better ... Ah ... lots of words here without the "context" given ... but when the "context" is given .. then it makes more sense.

Ah ... heard another "opportunist" story today. People banking in on an old man when he's in a weaker state of mind. Shame on them! Big bullies ... or actually ... cunning bullies. Well, reality says we'll always have them around ... so "On guard!"

and yet, there so many "broken" people - people whom acknowledge they are weak but being pounded on the head with black and white "statements" or formulas ... I'll never forget what a wise man who told me once - in the context of teaching preaching but I think applies to especially situations where people share their struggles ... "it's not we don't know what to do, it's we don't have the power to do what we know ... it starts with forgiveness, moves on with the Real Presence of Christ working in us ... a power that comes of ACTUALLY hearing the GOSPEL!" (my paraphrase here)

I still hope to recapture the lost post with the picture ... though it won't come out the same ... but there were important themes in that "lost" post ... I await for it to be "found" ... my hair won't stand up like Elysia in the picture ... but I'll have the same "wonder" look ...

Not so subtle reminder?!

Thanks Chin Hor for this ... (I'm trying brighten up after tha last sad post!)

Sad ...

I just blogged a heartfelt "random thought" post and supposed to click publish and I don't know what key I pressed and it all was "gone". :-(

A Pretty Good Morning

This morning was one of the best mornings so far. The weather was good. Gareth had a good breakfast. We talked. Going to "school" wasn't a fuss. He even tried putting on his own shoes - and had some fun time saying "hi" to the puppy next door. He really loves it when he sees the puppy playing with its mummy. Then when I ask is he READY to go .. off he runs to the car and crawls into the front seat. I was extremely happy when I left him at "school" he didn't cry but just waived and said, "Bye, papa!" Now that's enough to brighten up my day. And of course, made me want to pick him up later (so I called to tell Grandpa - "I'll do it".

When I arrived, Gareth was just finishing a couple of books ... he's always been comfortable with books and enjoys them - like me :-) And I was quite "proud" of him because he didn't just want to rush home but took the books and kept them nicely at the relevant shelf - this is more like his mom. After sorting out his own bag, happily we walk to the car together and head to his Grandpa's house.

This was a pretty good morning ... that I treasure. A gift of grace indeed.

Random Links 39

The Deposition of the Sign: Postmodernism and the Crisis of Religious Studies
I skimmed through and read a couple of chapters of Carl Raschke's book and thought I'll read this article first before returning to finish it.

THE JEWISH UNDERSTANDING OF SCRIPTURE
I've first heard of the name Levinas on the tips of a fellow Chinese speaking pastor during the Pastor's retreat. Then it came up in Raschke's book ... so I decided to read this one and will explore more later.

Kingdom Leadership in the Postmodern Era
This came up a second time ... printing now to read later. Did I say another "later" word?

20 ways to serve your street
Something more practical and immediately doable ... (via Graham Old)

Dare to be Free, Turn of the TV!
something more personal?! Even for those who don't have time to watch TV, the activities suggested is still good.

Random Thoughts after District Meeting

Sometimes I wish everyday would be just a bright sunny day - and yet - the storms are never too far away. So often, I find myself living in between the extremes of these two opposites ... one moment under the sun, at another moment under a cloudy sky.

How will the next few months turn out? what lies ahead? what role must I play? Of course, I'm learning again and again the art of waiting ... listening .. thinking .. speaking ... I wonder ... by not saying "no" this time ... whether it's for the best .. I will find out soon. Submission ... service ... sorting ... slogging ... hmm ...

I managed to give myself - a simple slow entry into some "personal space" that's needed. And I will continue tomorrow ... family adjustments brings to the forefront other personal adjustment that need to be made so things can "flow" better ... then this leads to re-working ministry priorities ... again "focus" ... re-surfacing .. "primary calling" questions and this time .. settling on some answers.

I already felt strongly since last Friday ... that some necessary "cut backs" are needed one one particular aspect of my ministry and work. I've grown in this area for many years but I'm also growing out of it without denying it's importance.

There's always an element of risk and the unknown ... that attracts me and scares me at the same time. This keeps me "humble" and "hopeful" and I'm learning how to handle this paradox in the choices I make or do not make. More than once I've "jumped first, and feared later" ... at times, I've just been "available" hopefully to be of some use. Right now, it's all that is right before my eyes ... right in front of me.

better get some sleep ... I'm still "not sure" what all this is leading to ... apart from tough lessons ahead in all aspects... I can only pray ... and be faithful .. be ready as much as possible for all potential storms and always keep my heart open to celebrate every sunny day!

Kyrie Eleison ... Maranatha!

I am David

I use to make it a point to occassionally go to the International Screens @ GSC Mid Valley and catch non-mainstream, art house and foreign language films. I enjoyed all of the ones I've chosen to watch. Quite a number of the movies moved me to feel and to think deeper. This particular one is coming soon to our Malaysian shores and it looks good.

Cultural Creative?

You scored as Cultural Creative. Cultural Creatives are probably the newest group to enter this realm. You are a modern thinker who tends to shy away from organized religion but still feels as if there is something greater than ourselves. You are very spiritual, even if you are not religious. Life has a meaning outside of the rational. Cultural Creative 88% Postmodernist 56% Fundamentalist 50% Romanticist 50% Existentialist 31% Idealist 31% Modernist 19% Materialist 19% What is Your World View? created with QuizFarm.com

It's been sometime since I've done one fo these online quizes (I picked up this one from Mike Todd - Thanks)... I don't take them too seriously but it's a fun and at times a helpful exercise. I was surprised that I was more "fundamentalist" than "idealist" though. I keep telling people I'm idealist at heart but realist in practice. I still like to think I am ...

I do find that part where it says, "you shy away from organized religion ..." interesting because in the eyes of the outsider I'm very much part of organized religion in Malaysia as an ordained pastor with the Lutheran church :-) so what am I doing in this insitution ...? or should I say why am I still in it?

In short, I think I've move beyond a mere surface reading of what is "organized" or "not organized" (institutional or non-institutional) expressions of religion. It may be a useful catergory to start a conversation or end it. But, as far as my life has been progressing thus far ... I've learnt (in some way) to exist in the institution I'm part of and prayerfully be one who contributes life to the organization (with loads of help and focus from the Spirit - we're in the season of Pentecost!). I also begin to recognize in so called "not organized" informal settings ... how to see the underlying "structures" that are actually there or emerging ... and maybe even need to be put in place for life to flourish further.

All in all ... I really do agree that "there's something greater than ourselves!"

The Brian McLaren Blog Tour which I missed

Sometimes these things happen ... *smile*

When Brian McLaren was "internet-trotting" having a fun time (I think) with his blog tour for his latest book. I actually missed it because I was at the Lutheran pastors retreat in Cameron (with a ministerium meeting thrown in plus I was unable to get online - more like no time!)

Oh yes .. I think it's good to go on record that Brian has grown to become my friend (an impotant friend told me the word "Friend" is a powerful and we shouldn't underestimate it :-) - just in case some might wonder whether I'm a Brian McLaren groupie or Malaysian fan club chairman! *grin* --> on both counts I'm not - I was never drawn to read Brian's book because he was hip or popular. When I first picked up his first book ... it's more of - "hey! That resonates with me!" and apart from the intuitive dimension - there weren't many English books in the Christian market that kind of "opened up" some space for my thoughts to interact with some ideas in my mind safely without being shot down - too quickly. So, I appreciated the "intellectual" dimension where I could think about issues related to church, Christianity, evangelism, spirituality, the recent one on "hell" etc. in a not so stuffy "academic" flavour (though I do appreciate that as well - it's just different). We all know friends don't agree on every single detail in life - that's assumed. But the conversations of friends who are genuinely open to share and receive from one another does allow for possibilities for encouraging constructive ways forward and gentle critic to keep us in check ..

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Here's what I could manage to cut and paste (for more click on the links for a wider context of the questions and comments). Thanks to all the bloggers (and those who left comments) who made this possible- take a deep breath - this is one of the longest posts I've put up thus far - read on if you like (I guess ... I compiled it more for me *smile*):

From Andrew Jones: The Blog Post of Brian McLaren

Thanks, Andrew, for getting the ball rolling on some important dialogue.
I love Andrew's post on "does the church believe in heaven." I just finished a paraphrase of the Gospel of Luke, and being immersed in Luke's gospel for several months ... it was very clear that Jesus wanted his followers to be willing to risk all for him and his gospel. Confidence in heaven made them willing to risk.

Some of you may know that I'm very involved in trying to get action and protection for the people of Darfur, Sudan. To me, the test of my faith in Christ, the gospel, and heaven is whether I'm willing to risk my life for people who suffer ...

Meanwhile, I recently read that among the most committed Christians, "tithing" averages under 3%.

The language of heaven and hell is intended, I believe, to push us to see that ultimate things are at stake ... that we need to "wake from our slumber."

Posted by: brian McLaren | May 9, 2005 12:29 PM

Re: Joe's comment above - that no adult has been scared into the kingdom ...

I'm sure there are exceptions to this, but I find that a scare tactic turns more adults away from God and the church than attracts them.

I wonder if this might help explain that commonly quoted statistic that hardly anyone in most churches became a Christian after the age of 14? Maybe our "scare tactics" are designed to appeal to children and not adults?

When I read Jesus in the gospels, I see him using very strong language ... there's no language stronger than hell language ... but not as a scare tactic. Rather, he's trying to wake sleeping people to the realities of choice they face at this moment.

Posted by: brian McLaren | May 9, 2005 12:35 PM

Great comments, everyone! Thanks - comments on specific questions below ...
++++
brian,
...i wonder if it is possible to address some of the issues without changing one's view of hell (and other things). does the fruit or bad fruit of the "doctrine" necessarily condemn the "doctrine"? ...how do you respond to the accusation that your "new" ideas are only responses to cultural shifts and the incompatibility of traditional christianity with postmodern sensibilities?
+++++
OK - for the first question, I try to include a character in the book - Carol - who represents exactly the option you ask about: not changing her view on hell, but being open to other new insights. Yes, I think this is possible.

For the second question, this sounds like you have read D. A. Carson's book on the emerging church (which Andrew has blogged on here in helpful ways). Can I recommend you read David Mills' (Cedarville College) helpful response to Dr. Carson? I think he addressed this question well and in detail. (Maybe somebody can put up a link here - if you google on "David Mills McLaren" it will come right up.)

Bottom line: my new ideas are in response to reading the Scriptures, and especially the gospels, and trying to take the Scriptures more seriously than the systematic theologies I was taught ... NOT that I'm against systematic theologies, but I believe they can obscure our reading of Scripture as well as aid it.

+++++
I just finished reading "the last word and the word after that" and I am fearful of being branded here as "someone who just doesent get it." While I agree with much of what Brian wrote about the Gospel being much more comprehensive than just filling the pews in Heaven and that the Kingdom of God is here; I am still left with the big "E" on the eyechart wondering well what do you believe happens when we die? I mean I know we can go round and round talking about how this is not the question to ask, but people do and they are concerned about it, so just wondering what you do think about this Brian.
thanks,
++++

Ryan - that's certainly a legimitate question. The reason I didn't go too far into my own views on this is that I thought I was doing enough in one book to raise issues and stimulate people to think on their own. I didn't want to impose my views but rather to stimulate thinking - so people will look at the Scriptures in a fresh way.

I gave a better glimpse into my own thought on the afterlife in "The Story We Find Ourselves In." In short, I believe we pass from this life into the presence of God, where all our sin is judged and eradicated, and what remains (I'm thinking of Paul's phrase "gold, silver, precious stones") constitutes the beginning of our ongoing identity. There is real possibility of tragedy - wasting one's life, so there isn't much to carry over beyond this life. There is also a great possibility for joy, because every cup of cold water given in love is not forgotten.

I should add that resurrection - not a disembodied state in heaven - is the Biblical vision of afterlife as I understand it. I like John Polkinghorne's way of describing death and resurrection (quoted by N. T. Wright): at death, God uploads our software onto his hardware, and then at the resurrection, downloads our software into new hardware.

Posted by: brian McLaren | May 9, 2005 03:01 PM

Hi, everybody - I'm really frustrated because I'm supposed to be at suddenly seminary but have been trying for 40 minutes or so and can't get checked in the hotel. Arrgh. Sorry for all those who are waiting for me to show up. Maybe we can reschedule for later in the week, after I have overcome whatever is the problem in getting in. (Apparently habbo doesn't recognize shockwave on my computer.)

I'll answer a couple quick questions ...

1. I have a question for Brian. In your first comment you said that Jesus uses hell to push us to see that "ultimate things are at stake" - in your mind, what are the "ultimate things" that are at stake?

-- Whether we waste our one and one life, or we invest it in what really matters: loving God, loving our neighbors in the way of Christ. If we waste our lives, we will have to stand before God and face this reality. I can't think of anything more serious than that.

I also think (following NT Wright) that Jesus had a special message for his Jewish people: "you stand at risk of losing your identity as the people of God who were called "to be blessed, to be a blessing" ... if you reject me, you are rejecting God." Serious indeed!

Today ... our world is in such deep trouble, and so are we individually. If we turn from Jesus and his message of God's kingdom ... what are we going to do with our lives? Buy more stuff? Trust in more weapons? Smoke more dope? I hope that gives some idea of what I think is at stake, in this life and beyond.

Posted by: brian McLaren | May 9, 2005 08:39 PM

Back to David's question ...

Let me paraphrase it.

The conventional idea of Hell is unpopular in our culture. If I'm questioning the conventional idea of Hell, does that mean I'm accommodating to our culture, watering down the gospel, etc? Even if I'm not, am I not in danger of doing so?

(Let me know if I've missed the meaning of the question.)
First a couple of provisos:
1. I am not questioning Scripture, Jesus, or his teaching. I am questioning the conventional understanding of them ... this is an important distinction.
2. I am being very Protestant and Evangelical in this ... I am going back to Scripture to test what I've been taught.
3. I didn't begin questioning the conventional understanding of Hell in order to be hip, conformist to culture, etc. I began questioning because I more deeply engaged with Scripture and felt that my conventional understanding flattened and oversimplified some of the richness of Scripture and created logical and spiritual problems for me and others.

Now to your specific question ... I am calling people to follow Jesus. That means calling them to repentance, sacrifice, faith, service, worship, reconciliation, character formation, spiritual transformation, commitment to the poor, willingness to suffer, courage to be misunderstood and persecuted, prayer, obedience, humility, confidence, and love for enemies. These things are not terribly in vogue in our culture.

By the way, conformity to a Christian subculture is also an issue. It was hard for abolitionists to question the conventional doctrines regarding slavery and race ... sometimes we must be as concerned about conformity to the religious subculture as we are the secular culture. Many of us are more afraid of breaking step with the former than the latter.

But at the end of the day - we all stand in danger of conforming to this world. Which is why we must seek to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, having given ourselves as living sacrifices to Christ.

Does that help clarify?

Posted by: brian McLaren | May 9, 2005 08:49 PM

From Jen Lemen: to hell and back with brian mclaren (Jen even throws in a superb interview for starters! )

Hi, J.J. - I spoke a bit about the Eastern Orthodox idea of hell in A New Kind of Christian, but not extensively. In its favor, this view says "There is nowhere you can go to be separated from God's presence." (By the way - the oft-quoted idea that "death is separation" - is, I think, on the same level as "God helps those who helps themselves." It's not in the Bible, but many people think it is.)

The view raises other problems ... like, "How could heaven be a pleasant place if many or most of the people walking around were in agony?"

What I really like about the view is that it focuses attention not on whether you have the right "bar code" of having said the "sinner's prayer" or not ... but rather, it focuses attention on what kind of person you are becoming here and now.

That, I think, is Jesus' concern. The Pharisees could be highly religious - but they had become vicious people in the process. Their piety covered ugly things. Judgment (very important in my mind!) means the truth is told about what's hiding under the skin of piety ... The truth comes out; the masks and lies are torn away.

If we believe we will face this kind of judgment later, we can choose to face reality now. Pretense, hypocrisy, spiritual cosmetics don't make sense if they're ultimately failing, self-destructive strategies. So we choose to face the truth now ... and seek to live accordingly.

That will change the direction of our lives (i.e. repentance) and set us on a course of living in harmony with our beliefs about God (i.e. faith) and as a result - we will become a different (better) kind of person than we would have otherwise been. As that happens to more and more people, the trajectory of the world's future shifts from self-destruction to hope (kingdom of God). Jesus, I believe, came to accomplish this very thing.

Posted by: brian mclaren at May 9, 2005 08:08 AM

Hi all - here are some responses to some of your questions ...

Q:
Brian, thanks for the courage and gentleness in addressing some very difficult issues in your recent writings. I think one of the major contributions you're making is a gentler tone of voice for Christian faith dialogue.

I'd imagine it was quite challenging to do the metaphorical archeological dig for the history of hell, and your latest book might be perceived as doing too much to decouple the notion of hell as eternal conscious torment from the Gospel's more holistic message and intent, rather than presenting an answer or prescription for how to live out the Gospel for the sake of the Kingdom.

Perhaps it's too much to ask for in one book to do both? Or, to say it another way, might some of your readers be asking for too much, for you to both deconstruct and to construct in the span of a book?
Posted by djchuang at May 9, 2005 08:44 AM

A: DJ - thanks for your kind words, and for recognizing this limitation. It's hard to do one thing reasonably well in a single book, much less everything! Your question encourages me ... because the book I'm working on now is about the Kingdom of God - an attempt at reconstruction. I hope it will pick up where this one left off. But without addressing the hell question, I fear that changing "fine print" on the theological contract won't make much of a difference.

Q:
Brian, Why do so many western Christians behave the way they do and focus on law rather than the great commandment? If I understand you correctly you are saying that a major factor is their undestanding of hell. But couldn't the real problem be our understanding of what it means to believe instead? That we have never figured out what James 2:18 was saying? One of my concerns with your emphasis on hell is how it balances grace and works. Isn't there a danger of devaluing grace?
Posted by Tom at May 9, 2005 10:14 AM

A: My friend Dallas Willard says that many of us are not only saved by grace, we're also paralyzed by it. Grace, as I understand it, energizes us for good works, and good works have nothing to do with earning ... they have to do with creativity, fruitfulness, joy, life, giving, caring. You're right - nobody needs to go back to Pelagianism, etc. I hope nobody gets a sniff of that in my work. But I do hope that my work encourages people to see that good works aren't a bad thing - they're actually one of the purposes of the gospel (I don't have a Bible with me - but maybe someone can post that beautiful verse from Titus in this regard ... )

The Eastern tradition didn't seem to become so preoccupied with a) legal metaphors for salvation ( preferring medical ones), b) original sin as an ontological blot that must be removed, c) determining who's in and out in eternity (though it's very clear who's in and out in the true church for them). Their focus (as I discern it - and it's hard for an outsider to be accurate) has been more on Christ as the healer of the cosmos ... he assumes humanity and heals it, he enters history (like medicine) and heals it. We live in the outworking of that healing. No, more - we're part of it.

Q:
Brian--really enjoyed the book, it has helped me deal with some of the fundamental baggage I've had for a while about hell and evangelism. I especially liked the list/categories of the scriptures dealing with hell in the book. My question is more on the practical side--how do we raise these questions in our conservative churches without being stoned. I am still working out my own views on hell and the gospel--and it is like a fresh new wind in my life, but in honesty, it's been difficult to share this or translate it in my faith community. Any thoughts?
Posted by brian orme at May 9, 2005 10:17 AM

A: Based on my experience, I don't recommend you raise these issues in your church ... unless you feel a special calling and empowering from God to do so. First, you could hurt the church - it may not be able to handle dialogue on this. (Many of our Protestant churches have a sociological unity based on uniformity of opinion and can't yet handle the more difficult unity based on love in diversity). Second, you could get hurt quite badly yourself - people can be quite vicious when these kinds of questions are raised! So far, nobody has used literal stones on me, but there have been some hard verbal rocks thrown, and they can leave bruises.

Instead, I'd find a few close friends with whom you can have honest dialogue and work this out with them. Then, get on with living well.

Q:
Question: I'm a pastor in the United Church of Canada, and I've noticed that a lot of the time, when I read about the emergent/emerging church I find myself saying "Hey, that's us!"

As a denomination, we in the UCC:
--try to draw on to the best of the traditions and experiences that came before us.
--we try to learn from past screw-ups.
-- we try not to be bound by "we've always done it this way"
-- we strive to be inclusive, basing that theologically on the life of Jesus.
-- we try to speak a relevant Word in creative and meaningful ways to a searching world.

The question: Are we emergent????

A: Sounds like it, Sue! There's a lot of room in this conversation, and there's a lot of work to do together, so I'm for welcoming everyone into the journey who wants to learn and contribute.

Q:
"Salvation by grace, judgement by works. There's nothing in the Bible clearer than those two realities. Of course, you have to define salvation in Jesus' way, not just modern Western Christianity's."

and

"I didn't realize that being judged isn't the same as being condemned and that being saved means a lot more than not being judged."

In Banff you spoke of justice and mercy. Now, I see a link. I've always been perplexed by the legitimacy of me being a good Christian - that is, to "follow" a deity who obviously cared about the poor, the oppressed, the widow and the orphan, the ignored and overlooked - while not doing any of the same.

The notion that we will be judged by our works makes intuitive sense to me, as long as we broaden our narrow Western Christian definition of "judgement". While recognizing that this probably falls under the "I don't know" category, can you elaborate a little on this idea of the judgement of believers?

A: First, thanks for noticing those sentences. I felt they were pretty important when I wrote them. The biggest thing that comes to my mind is how little this subject comes up in our conventional understanding - but how real it is in the NT. Maybe somebody would like to post some of the Scriptures that speak of judgment of believers. Again - it doesn't mean condemnation: it means giving an accurate assessment. Let me think on this some more and see if I can add something - but I expect other people in this conversation will add something better than I can.

Q:
Brian, what does that in-between space look like? Right now, I don't get and don't particularly want to get Jesus. But I also don't want to go elsewhere? Where in our current Christian culture is there room for us "between people"?

(p.s. when I say I don't particularly want to get Jesus, maybe what I mean is that I really don't want to get the evangelical cultural Jesus. I'm so tired and sad that it just doesn't seem worth it)
Posted by Lisa at May 9, 2005 01:39 PM

A: Lisa ... I have a special place in my heart for people like you, because I think you probably get Jesus a lot more than you realize, and maybe a lot more than the rest of us. What is making your tired and sad is probably the same kind of thing that would make Jesus feel that way ... and maybe those are some of the things he had in mind when he said, "Blessed are they who mourn."

Here's a thought: what if you were to try an experiment - assuming that God was no less with you in the in-between place than he is with anybody anywhere? And what if you were simply experiment with following Jesus in the in-betweenness - not to earn anything, not to prove anything to anybody, but just to try to live in his way ... say, working with the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7). It would be especially good if you could do this with some other friends who felt the same way ... and maybe you could all post your experiences over a month or two. I think that would be a worthwhile experiment.

Q: My unending challenge is to find ways of incorporating progressive, "emergent" thought into my teaching and theatrics, while never coming right out and saying... such and such. It must be subversive. Subversive teaching certainly makes for engaging drama, but as a spiritual lifestyle, it is painful - like a little butter spread over too much toast.

A: This wasn't a question, but it sure was well said!
Posted by: brian mclaren at May 9, 2005 06:16 PM

From Jason Clark: Talk with Brian McLaren

Hi, all - Thanks for your interest and good discussion ... Here are a couple of replies to some of the questions you raised ...

Q:
I do have a couple of questions for you. The quote that Dan gets from Markus I quite like that. But if it is only all about making the world to a better place, it can seem like we are just doing what the NGO's are doing. You can argue that they are also doing Gods work also, so is there any difference between the work of the NGO's and the work of the church, and what would that difference be?

A: I'm comfortable saying that NGO's are doing work that pleases God ... but if they aren't proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and the truth about Jesus, that means there's still more to do. And of course - if we proclaim the good news of the kingdom and the truth about Jesus without doing "good works" ... we're not doing the whole job either! I think we should rejoice whenever people are doing good ... and we should do what Christ has commanded us to do, which is an integral holistic mission of proclamation and demonstration.

Also, I never say it is ONLY about making the world a better place. I'm just saying that is a BIG PART of the good news and it shouldn't be left out. An important distinction, I think you'll agree.

Q:
An other question relates more to the whole triology. I suppose you can say that a new kind of christianity is about a more inclusive christianity. But would there in your understanding of it be a bounded set and centered set or would it only be a centered set, and how do you define the bounded set - especially regarding leadership.

A: Thomas - great questions from Denmark! I talk about bounded, centered, and dynamic sets in A Generous Orthodoxy and More Ready Than You Realize. In short ... of course, there is a sense of boundaries that we must maintain. For example, a hospital needs to know who its doctors and nurses are. They can't let just anybody come in and try to perform surgery! But the purpose of being "exclusive" regarding staff is so they can be inclusive regarding sick people who come in needing help. This is a very different kind of exclusion from an elite club, for example. I hope our churches resemble the former.

Q:
I agree that our understanding of hell and salvation must be redescribed and refound in a postmodern context. I remember an old Danish professor I once heard speaking on this topic, I think she was a bit like Ruth Mitchell in the book. She said, that the doctrine of hell especially develloped with the reformation and the enlightenment and the modern era and the extreme focus on humans. She said something like this: Who are we to think that we have more power than God and can decide for ourselves if we want to be saved or not? He didn't ask if we wanted to be created - did he? Creation was an act of love from God not something we could choose or not - so it is with salvation as well. It's the continuation of the evolving creation of God.
Posted by: Lasse (DK) | May 9, 2005 11:51 PM

A: Lasse - this is a very different approach from most approaches I hear, which emphasize free will. Interesting point - we have no free will in being created. God "imposes" this good gift on us. You've given me something to think about!

Q:
Have you ever heard of Ken Wilber (non-christian, American, post-post-modern philosopher)?

What do you think of his Integral work ("A Theory of Everything", "One Taste", "Sex, Ecology and Spirituality", "Grace and Grit", Commentary track on "The Matrix" etc.)?
Can/should there be any highly visible conversation with him and Integral?

A: Whitewave - I refer to Ken's work in my book "A Generous Orthodoxy." I think he's doing important work. A friend of mine is an acquaince of his. Perhaps someday there will be some contact. I don't agree with him in everything (that would apply to just about anybody for any of us!) ... but his work has helped me in a number of ways, especially A Theory of Everything, Marriage of Sense and Soul, and Boomeritis. Jay Gary (jaygary.com) is a committed Christian who studied with Wilber and is applying Wilber's work to Christian mission. Great fellow!

Q: Ok now I am the third person from Denmark who comments on this post (I don’t that has happened before). I am also glad to have finished the book! It actually made me think (like the two other books did).
I have had some discussions for two years a go with one of my friends (Thank God that he still is my friend (I was not really old at that time and not that mature in my Christian life)). Well I was an exclusivenist. I told him that I thought that he would end up in hell. In the last two years many things have happened with my theology. You can say that I have become more inclusive and stuff like that. Well, that was a bit of the context. After the conversation about hell my friend and me haven’t spoke much about Christianity. He got scared away (looking back in the mirror I don’t blame him). I have a difficult but beautiful responsibility to tell him about my new thoughts about Christianity. But I am not sure how (but that is my own problem). My problem is that I don’t know what to tell him. Because the Good News can’t just be that I have chanced opinions. What is the Good News for my friend – if it has nothing to do with eternal life? And what is the Good News – if he does not people in Jesus? And if he starts believing in Jesus does it mean that he has to stop smoking pot (which is one of the only things he is really enjoying)?
And what is the Good News for the people in my church, who have always believed in bringing people to Church/Heaven being their only purpose? The only thing they are doing. I don’t think it is Good News to tell them to stop doing the one thing they have done and believed in all their life.
I think I have used my space on this site for now!
Posted by: Simon (DK) | May 10, 2005 04:42 PM

A: Simon - great to hear from Denmark today! First, I wouldn't want to swing to the opposite extreme - from an overemphasis on afterlife to an underemphasis or denial of afterlife altogether. That would be a terrible mistake. The message of the kingdom embraces people alive on earth now and those who are not now visible to us. It's a both/and thing ...

As for your friend, I would tell him this good news: life in the kingdom is available to all - including potsmokers from Denmark! God invites all of us to rethink our lives and consider joining in the life and work of the kingdom of God. (This might not be the best language to use ... but that's another story.) When we begin living in the kingdom - many things will change. He may just find that there are better things than smoking pot, just as consumerists discover there are better things than consumption, etc. But that will come in time - with the Holy Spirit's work.

I like what the other commenter said ... part of our witness is admitting when we've made mistakes. I think God's grace flows when we're humble in this way. Your humility shows through beautifully in your post.

Q: I guess my question is why reformulate the concept of hell just because some people focus on eternal in an overboard way? Couldn't the Gospel of the Kingdom not contradict the Gospel of Salvation? Part of God's grace is that we deserve judgement. Couldn't it be that we send ourselves to hell not God? Jesus says if you don't believe Me you are condemned already in your sins. "It is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgement." To me it already seems consistent. I don't understand the need to reformulate. It doesn't make sense to me.
Posted by: dh | May 10, 2005 05:24 PM

A: DH - As I said above - we shouldn't overreact to some people's improper balance by creating an equal and opposite improper balance, so I agree with you in principle. But the situation is more complex than it appears.

If you aren't having problems with the conventional doctrine of hell, I wouldn't worry about it. If you do someday have problems with it, my book may be of help to you.

Those of us who are questioning the conventional formulation aren't doing so to be trendy or cool or compromising or reactionary, etc., but because we're trying to be faithful to the Scriptures, and we're concerned that the conventional doctrine doesn't do full justice to the Scriptures.

Thanks again, everyone! Maybe Jason and I will meet some of you in Denmark next year. Warmly - Brian

Posted by: brian McLaren | May 11, 2005 02:36 AM

From Adam Cleaveland: "Conversations About Hell" with Brian McLaren

Hi, Adam - OK, first the confession: I don't have an iPod. If I did, I don't think I'd have time to download songs into it. Pathetic, I know. Maybe someday. I am a huge lover of music, though, and have just been listening with delight to my friend John Mortenson's mostly live CD of Irish music called "Plays Well With Others." Irish music is good for my soul. I'm also a fanatic Bruce Cockburn fan (when's the next CD coming out?) and love just about anybody who's a singer-songwriter ... Steve Bell (who's working on an album of Cockburn songs - but he's a splendid songwriter himself), David Wilcox, Bob Bennett, Michael Kelly Blanchard are "old" favorites, along with Sheryl Crow, Alanis Morrisette, Jewel, Bonnie Raitt ... but there are so many great new talents coming along too. I can't keep up with them all.

Now to your first question ... For me, things really started happening when I first heard the term "narrative theology." I can't remember where I first heard it, but it may have been Jim McClendon's work. Anyway, N.T. Wright (for the NT) and Walter Brueggemann (for the OT) have probably helped me more than anyone in reading the Bible narratively.

When you have a sense of the Biblical narrative, you stop reading the Bible so much as a source of proof-texts for a systematic theology ... and you read it more as a conversation taking place in an unfolding story. (This is really the point of "The Story We Find Ourselves In" - Book 2 in the trilogy, and in many ways, its centerpiece.)

As well, when we enter the narrative imaginatively, we start asking, "Why would Jeremiah say this? Why would Jacob do that? Why would an editor include this story in this way, in obvious tension with the way the same story was told in that other version? What was Habbakuk trying to get his readers to feel, do, think - in their specific historic/political/religious context?" That's when things - for me, anyway - get even more interesting.

Of course, all of this brings us to look at our world - Darfur, Congo, North Korea, the Religious Right, the global economy, Bill O'Reilly, American Idol - and ask the right questions here and now. What dangers do we need to expose and confront? What sparks of hope or virtue do we need to fan? Who is suffering and forgotten? How does God want us to respond?

I hope that's helpful. Feel free to follow up, as this is such an important question, and I may just be rambling.

Posted by: brian mclaren | May 9, 2005 08:32 AM

Just wanted to stop by once more to see if any other questions came up.
Joshua - thanks for your comment. it's interesting ... I'm less sure that we MUST have a system; I wonder if for some people in the future (as in the past) the narrative itself will carry the freight that systems carry for us in modernity. If the system is an attempt to extract from each story, poem, law, etc., a timeless statement that can be integrated with other timeless statements into a timeless system ... some of us think that the desire for timelessness is itself a somewhat (not exclusively) modern thing. A narrative approach seeks timeliness more than timelessness, I think ... its goals are more modest, maybe echoing Deut. 29:29. We need to know what to do to be faithful to the Lord, as our children will need ... and their children, and so on.

But I suppose we humans are constantly seeking coherence and comprehensiveness, and if that's what you mean by system, I don't disagree at all.

Thanks, all, for good conversation here at pomomusings. Keep up the good dialogue!

Posted by: brian mclaren | May 10, 2005 10:49 PM

From Jordon Cooper: Brian McLaren - guest blogging

Hi, all -

Thanks, Jordon, for the chance to visit! For some reason, I'm unable to log in, so I've asked Greg to post this for me. I'll check back later this afternoon.

OK ... why evangelize?
1. Jesus told me to. That's reason enough.
2. People are like sheep without a shepherd. They aren't living the abundant life. If they follow Jesus, they'll find life.
3. The world is in a mess. Without good news, it's going to self-destruct. Jesus teaches and exemplifies the way to a better life, not only for individuals, but for the planet.

What about "weeping and gnashing of teeth?"
The possibility is real that people (and groups of people) can waste their lives, play on the wrong side, fight against God, frustrate God's grace, get in the way, cause others to suffer, miss out on life's best joys (like the joy of giving). One of the primary meanings of hell language is regret over wasted potential, missed opportunities. I'm NOT a universalist in the sense of saying, "Look, everybody is going to heaven, so it doesn't matter what you believe or how you live." I hope that my line of thinking leads to a greater sense of accountability (especially among those Christians who seem to think because they have the right beliefs it's impossible for them to face regret for how they've lived their lives).

HTH - Brian

By Greg, at 8:18 AM

Hi, all - here are two more replies ...

1....however, I am challenged to more tightly integrate this with other Bible basics, ie. sin, atonement, final states… otherwise I get a sense Jesus becomes reduced to a dr. phil, oprah, self-help, make-the-world-a-better-place guru.

How would you articulate the necessity for the work of Christ, beyond his teachings, and its relationship with our response and eternal states? Hope that makes sense.
By Lon, at 9:57 AM

-- Good question. I try to answer this a bit in "A Generous Orthodoxy" in my chapter on "seven Jesuses." Let me sum it like this. As a trinitarian, I believe Jesus is God incarnate. So, the kingdom of God has Jesus as its king. A king doesn't rule by teachings alone. A king rules by presence, involvement, example, action, intervention, motivation, etc. So Jesus is absolutely essential, not just for one thing (whether his teaching, his shed blood, or whatever) ... he is essential for all things that he is and does as our king. He is everything to me.

2. Bonjour Brian,

Thanks for stopping by today. You certainly force us to dig right into thinking deeper about issues.

I am really challenged by what you said about hell. Are you saying there will be NO definite demarcation between righteous and unrighteous?

-- NO! I'm not saying that at all! In fact, I'm saying the very opposite! Thanks so much for asking for clarification here. I'd hate for anybody to have this misconception!

How much can we soften up Matthew 25 : "41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

-- I don't want to soften that up at all! But here's what's interesting: Matthew 25 doesn't say, "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me ... for you never prayed to ask me into your heart, you never confessed me as your Lord and Savior, you never said the sinner's prayer, you never walked the aisle, you never identified yourself as a born-again-Bible-believin' Christian."

--So the conventional view doesn't really deal with this text as well as I do, I'd say!!!

Are we not to take into account all the other passages mentioning hell, eternal fire, eternal separation from the presence of God, Hades, etc.? Isn't salvation a demarcation, made visible by a life bearing fruits of repentance?

-- I took a whole book to answer this question ... We need to take every one of those passages seriously. I don't think the conventional view does so. And yes ... salvation is more than fire insurance: it is being healed from a sin-sick life so that we can live a healthy, fruitful life, just as you say.

HTH everyone! More later ...

By brian McLaren, at 2:01 PM

Jordan asked ...

You allude to the 'abundant life' and that it is a reality here and now.
My difficulty with that is where?
Where do you suggest we look to find this and learn it? I know that Jesus presented it...but what does it look like now in North America in 2005?

-- Jordan, this is an incredibly important question. This is what "spiritual formation" is all about ... helping people be formed into the kinds of people who experience and practice and convey abundant life. This is what I've been learning, little by little, for about thirty years.

I think it looks like justice (seeking justice for the poor, needy, oppressed, in whatever small or large ways we can - as Mother Teresa said, little things done with great love can change the world), peace (living in reconciled relationships with others - Christians, nonChristians, atheists, Buddhists, Iraqis, everyone we can), and joy (which flows from gratitude and other spiritual disciplines) in the Holy Spirit. A lot more could be said. Maybe others can chime in on this.

Sadly, too many of our religious institutions aren't focused on answering this important question!

By brian McLaren, at 2:05 PM

Hi, all - I just stopped by to see if there were any more comments today.

Thanks again for the good dialogue. Keep up the great work, Jordon. You've got a great site and a great group of people gathering here.

Shane asked ...
Do you believe in Hell?
-- Shane, I believe in Jesus, and I believe in everything he said, but I don't believe that we all (myself included) accurately understand everything he said, including what he said about hell. That's what my book tries to explore.
Do you believe in the accuracy of Luke 16:19-31?
-- Yes, of course! But I wonder if you believe what this passage seems to teach - that rich people go to hell, and poor people to Abraham's bosom? I raise that question to point out that these things aren't as simple as many people make them sound.

Are you a universalist?
-- No.

Also - someone remarked about the irony of writing a book on hell saying we're overpreoccupied with hell. That is ironic, you're right ... but actually, the book isn't really about hell primarily. It's about our view of God, and our understanding of the gospel. Thanks again, everyone, for some great dialogue!

By brian mclaren, at 8:02 PM

From Dwight Friesen: Brian McLaren's post

Hi, all - thanks for the great posts. A few brief comments ...

Alex, I appreciate your concern about upholding the right boundary lines. I have no right (or desire!) to change anything God has laid down as unchangeable. I have no right to change or disregard Scripture. But I think you‘ll agree, we all have the responsibility to test what we hear against Scripture. That‘s what I‘ve tried to do regarding the conventional teaching on hell. I am trying to be more Biblical, not less - more faithful to God, not less.

Martin Luther had to do this regarding issues in his day (not that I‘m comparing myself to him!). Martin Luther King Jr and Desmond Tutu had to do the same. Whether it was indulgences or racism ... both were accepted and even defended as being essentially Biblical, and those who questioned them were called troublemakers, heretics, rabblerousers. These reformers questioned the conventional understandings, not against Scripture, but based on it. So please be assured - I‘m not trying to change the meaning of Scripture: I‘m seeking to find and understand it.

Just one example for those who haven‘t read the book ... why do we assume that condemn, judge, not enter the kingdom of God, and send to hell all mean the same thing? What if they mean different things? By equating them, we run the risk of misunderstanding Scripture.

So many Christians quote verses from Matthew, Mark, and Luke about hell ... but they are careless when it comes to asking, "What sends you there?" They believe in a literal hell, but they don‘t preach what Jesus preached would send you there; they tend to preach that not believing what they believe will send you there. Again - this isn‘t an attempt to be untrue to Scripture; it‘s an attempt to be true to it. In the book, I have a pretty long table listing the various consequences of various bad behaviors from the gospels ... I hope this demonstrates respect for Scripture, not a cavalier attitude.

Dwight - I loved the way you put issues of judgment in relation to the relationality of God. This is a very different picture from either a) the idea (amazingly common among American Christians) that God chooses some people to be saved from hell but tacitly chooses others to be forever tormented there, or b) the idea that God hates people who sin and can not rest unless they are tormented eternally.

Ryan - your question about the idea of Satan is interesting, but I‘m rusty on the historical background. Can I recommend you read Walter Wink?

Rob - I‘m sorry you feel that I treat Scripture and the Christian tradition in a cavalier way. I hope you‘re wrong, and I hope that if this is your opinion of me after reading two of my books, you‘ll at least keep praying for me ... even passive-aggressive people need prayer, you know?

Everyone - thanks for your kind words. I‘ll check back later this week to see if there are more comments/questions.

This is a great group of people gathered around the table with Dwight! - Brian

Written by: brian mclaren at 2005/05/10 - 00:46

Ron - about your dog. Don‘t shoot him. Just don‘t let him bite the neighborhood kids or make a mess on your carpet. He‘s protected you from some mean intruders in the past, and it sounds like you‘ve trained him pretty well. If/when he dies, keep a picture of him; he‘s part of your life!

Written by: brian mclaren at 2005/05/10 - 00:49

Brian - thanks for your honest response. Dwight and I both teach at Mars Hill Graduate School - so I think it would be a great one to look into. There are a number of other good options too - more and more ever year, as I think (thanks be to God) that more and more seminaries are breaking out of some old ruts.
Written by: brian mclaren at 2005/05/10 - 03:49

Hi, all - I just wanted to check in once more and see if there were any other questions. I‘m glad I did - Sky, your post was helpful to me. I‘d love to know where the first quote came from - if you have an author or reference. Strongly stated!

My sense these days is that the Western church got off track way back there somewhere (largely becoming preoccupied with "juridical" imagery, as Sky‘s quote said, and losing or downplaying all the other rich Biblical images of salvation - healing, rescuing, marrying, welcoming home, etc). To find our way back to the path, we are wise to listen to our Eastern brothers and sisters. (We also need, I think, to listen to our brothers and sisters from cultures that were trampled by colonialism, but that‘s another story for another time.) Maybe this is one of God‘s clever uses of our schisms, a way that (as Ecclesiastes says) two are better than one ... when one person (group) falls, he can be lifted up by his companion. Woe to the one who falls alone (or who won‘t accept help from anyone outside his little tribe!).

Thanks again, everyobne, for good conversation. Thanks Dwight, for hosting a safe and interesting place.
Written by: brian mclaren at 2005/05/11 - 03:15

From Chris Monroe: Guest Blog: The Last Word and The Word After That

Hi, all - great questions! Here are some brief replies ...

Q:
Brian,
Do you think there is still an appropriate way to talk about hell without it meaning what most churches today intend it to mean. Would it still be appropriate to use it to imply God’s judgment on things that are unjust in today’s world, and things that are in need of restoration?
If not, Do we need to find a different way to talk about the need for justice in the world?
-Shane
Posted by: Shane Pavlak | May 9, 2005 07:36 AM

A: Shane - great question. Here's an analogy. We need to teach the passages of Scripture that talk about slavery. But every time we teach them, we also need to teach how they have been abused, and we need to give some narrative context so people understand what they did and didn't mean to their original hearers. I think we need to do something similar today regarding hell. Meanwhile - yes, we need to talk much more (in my opinion) than we've been doing about judgment - that we all are accountable to God, and that right now counts forever.

Q: Brian - what sort of response have you had or do you expect from the Catholic community?
Posted by: Lorrie | May 9, 2005 08:00 AM

A: Lorrie - the Catholic community has a wide range of people, just as the Protestant community does. There are "religious right" Catholics, left-wingers, liberals, moderates, etc., etc. I've heard from a few conservative Catholics who respond very much like Protestant fundamentalists. I've heard from many Catholics who appreciate what I'm doing ... one priest, for example, wanted to take a character from The Story We Find Ourselves In and create a parallel trilogy for Catholic folk.

Q:
In dialoguing with Reformed (Calvinist) friends, how can I discuss hell/heaven and get around their insistence on God only "saving the elect"?\
Posted by: kristen | May 9, 2005 08:39 AM

A: I think this is risky. For some reason, there seems to be a higher percentage of highly aggressive people among Calvinists (in my experience, at least.) More temperate Calvinists need to urge their brethren to become less pugilistic and more charitable, imho. But if you have Calvinist friends who are open to rethinking ... I'd begin with the idea of election. I discuss this a bit in "A Generous Orthodoxy."

Lesslie Newbigin (the great British missiologist) used to say that the greatest heresy in the history of monotheism is a misunderstanding of election - namely, that election is to elite, exclusive privilege. No, he said - election is to service and even suffering: we are chosen to serve for the benefit of others, not to the exclusion of others. We are chosen not just to be blessed (in this life, or the next), but we are blessed to be a blessing to others. All this flows from the original calling of Abraham. (See "The Open Secret" for more on this.)

This radical rethinking of the meaning and purpose of election opens the door to a lot of other ideas. N.T. Wright writes helpfully about this too.

Q: Brian, thank you so very much for all of your work, it has helped far more of us than you will ever realize. I have enjoyed certain things about each of your books, but what I really appreciate about this new one is that it is a topic almost everyone is interested in. Although I wanted to recommend the other 2 to others, not all of them would be helped by them. With this newest book, you don't really have to explain anything about postmodernism or emergent, you can just the book out.

I recenly watched a documentary on the history channel on the history of hell,which really helped a lot to go along with your book.

As you have discussed this topic before, what seems to be the biggest or most common criticism that you have received? Thanks again.
Posted by: Benjy | May 9, 2005 09:46 AM

A: Thanks, Benjy. I saw that history channel show too - I wish it had been available when I first began my research - it was hard to find anything on the subject! The most common criticism ... "Who do you think you are to question something the church has held without diversity of opinion forever?" The assumption behind the question, by the way, is flawed - there has been, from ancient times to contemporary times, a persistent "minority report" on hell. I'm not the first and won't be the last.

Q: Brian, I think the book will indeed open up the dialogue re: hell. It's a concept that is sorely in need of deconstruction. So, I have two questions:

As people grapple with various understandings of hell, justice, judgment, etc., how can we encourage them to embrace the inherent theological 'tensions' associated with these themes and avoid seeing them as being mutually exclusive?

The book's character, Dan, (probably like most folks), tend to want things 'nailed down', yet scripture repeatedly seems to underline the mysteries of our faith, bidding us to trust more deeply. Learning from views other than our own goes both ways, right?
Posted by: Chris | May 9, 2005 01:10 PM

A: Great questions, Chris. I think Paul's writings on "eating meat sacrificed to idols" (Romans 14-15, I Cor. 9-10) are very instructive. I'd begin by having people grapple with those passages (especially interesting when correlated with the Jerusalem Council in Acts). Paul doesn't require uniformity of practice or opinion ... he does require common commitment to love. (I Corinthians 13 wasn't really written for weddings - but for churches with diversity of opinions, practices, and gifts!)

If we acknowledge this diversity and learn to hold both our opinions and our communities in love ... I think we'll be able to learn more, appreciate mystery, and maintain humility.

Q:
So far (I just finished chapter 21), this book is a lot more challenging than the others I've read (the first two in this series and Generous Orthodoxy, which introduced me to you). You wrote that you'd like to know the most difficult and helpful (or in some cases, both, I've found) things we've encountered in the book.

I am humbled to admit that Peter's use of Tartarus was a shock, and I found myself wishing that I didn't know that. ....Posted by: Eric | May 9, 2005 02:15 PM

A: Eric - ah, yes. This is the downside of education. It leads us into discomfort at times! Some describe the move from naivete to disillusionment to a new, higher, tested, wise simplicity (the second naivete). I hope you'll find a straight path to the second naivete as you continue to pray, think, dialogue, etc.

As an analogy ... I have an oft-quoted article that talks about Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz. This doesn't imply that I believe they are real historical people, right? Can the Bible writers similarly refer to stories or concepts from their times and not be expected to be affirming of their complete historicity?

Q:Brian,
my friend desertpastor asked that I stop by and say hey.
Hey. overall i've really liked your stuff. I must say I was surprized by Generous Orthodoxy (how much i really liked it) and a little disappointed in The Last Word.
I just really think the exchange between Neo and Dan where you have Neo explain to Dan
"But what about when Job says something about knowing that his redeemer lives and asserting that he will see God in the flesh?"

Neil replied, "I think Job is saying that he believes he'll recover from his terrible illness and be vindicated--not as a soul in heaven but in this life, in his own body. At least that's how I see it."

Is so incredibly lame. And that the bad part is that EC and POMO folk will now use Neil's answer to Dan as some sorta Dead Sea Scrolls way to explain away Hell.

You usually talk about the question being more important than the answer, and that answers arn't all that neat. You must have forgot that pages 46 thru 50 something.
Overall you say some really good stuff. But you need to be more careful. I mean some of the folk I know treat your words like they're inspired.
Sigh.
If nothing else you are making Christians think.
God knows that needed to happen.
Love you in Christ.
I'shalom
Seraphim

A: If we had time, I'd like to know why you think that Neo's response is so lame. Be assured - I believe in resurrection! But I don't think that is necessarily what Job was talking about. Taken in context of the whole book - he's not very exccited about saying, "Yeah, it's OK that I'm suffering because in heaven it will all be better." Don't you agree?

But listen - if you hear anybody taking my words as more than just one guy's honest thinking - which is tentative, fallible, and never to be taken as more than that - please tell them I don't approve!

By the way - please be assured that I'm not trying to explain away hell! I'm trying to properly understand it's history, meaning, and use by Jesus and the apostles. An important distinction.

Posted by: brian McLaren | May 9, 2005 05:17 PM

Random Links 38

Blogpoly
I thought this was cute too .. (via Willzhead)

We need transformation, not false transcendence
I saw some Richard Rohr books in Borders Times Square this week ... will read this article first before checking out his books.

Managing Conflict: The Conversation You Dread
The ministerium meeting I participated at the Cameron retreat discussed about church conflicts and what can we do to ease the conflict. For startes we need to open up conversations, and then try to understand and of course ultimately work towards a good resolution. So this might come in handy.

Worship in the Spirit of Justice
Now this is different .. In a topic which was given to me i.e. "The heart of Worship" on Friday by a group of high school students, I tried to introduce th connection between worship and justice. I found it to be rewarding to share it. I wonder what went through the youngsters mind? :-)

Hauerwas , Bonheoffer, Activism, and the Church
I wonder who picks the books for Borders at Times Square KL because I saw Stanley Hauerwas' book on Bonhoeffer there as well ... will read this after church tomorrow ... hmm ...

Random Thoughts before LiFE Group Meeting

I'm happy I managed to finish reading the book of Joshua today from chapters 13-24 using the Message. I had to plough through the bits about land allocation (without a map at hand), fell in and out of sleep throughout ... but had a few moments "leap out", such as
- the assylum-cities (chapter 20) ... interesting that this was highlighted when people could have taken justice into their own hands.
- cities for Levites (chapter 21) ...
- the investigation into "the altar" built by the Reubenites, Gadites and the half-tribe of Manasseh (Chapters 22-23) ... so this is not a rival altar but a complementary one.
- and of course, Joshua's final speech (chapters 23-24)... keeping our unqualified yes to God ... I suppose the book is still more about Worship than wars.

There's so much in my mind .... especially after the pastors retreat. of course, there are more than one unfinished "assigments" I hope to have some closure on .. just at a denominational level as a education committee member - the DVD project that I'm part of, the organization of some seminars, helping to gather stuff for a theological education & minister's guidebook etc. Lord, Help!

Of course, local church matters also has much that needs to be completed before the next leadership meeting. I hope to have some time next week in solitude and prayer to allow floating "stuff" in my mind to settle.

There's an interesting discussion going on about "2nd Generation" Christians at our Emergent Malaysia yahoogroup. I also hope we can progress a bit more as far as Emergent Malaysia is concerned.

Hope to take Gareth for a swim he's been asking for it for a couple of weeks. Once his cough is better ... we'll jump into the pool! I'm realy looking forward for that.

Week two of our adjustments is on course starting Monday, I REALLY hope we can settle into some kind of rhythm. Change is always stressful but necessary.

Ok ... 30 more minutes to the LiFE Group meeting ... Lord, bless us to be a blessing. :-)

Elysia & Grandma Kit

When I came back from Cameron on Wednesday, Elysia was at home to welcome me :-) Well, my mom too ... May Chin has gone back to "normal" work schedules. There's still a lot of adjustments for all of us ... one step at a time.

Random Thoughts after Cameron

I just came back from the Lutheran Pastors Retreat at Heritage Hotel Cameron Highlands. The last time I was at Cameron Highlands was as a speaker for a Campus camp. I've always liked Cameron ... especially the cool weather.

Those of us there had more than one "roller coaster ride" emotionally as we got news that some members from one of our churches were affected by the blast in Myanmar. Even though 4 of them were hurt (including pre-school young boy), no injuries were life-threatening. So throughout the retreat we were trying to get latest updates of their situation there and the process of them coming home.

Numerous SMSs were spread before we got some more reliable information ... and the information passing around the mobile phones (I learnt that even in the spirit of trying to be caring ... misinformation actually causes unneccessary alarm/panic) Worse is when one of the Chinese papers capitalized on this incident and "sensationalized" the story. I remember getting 3 Chinese papers and 2 English ones for everyone and especially the Bishop to read once I knew that it's going to be printed (Now I've got loads of lessons on how one relates to the press and how one decides to frame the story and communicate it to the public, and all the complicated factors surrounding this whole process). By the time we left today, we had got a better picture of the "stabilized" situation of those who've returned and are returning home.

As far as the retreat was concerned, I enjoyed myself ... there were encouraging and challenging "short" messages, substantial conversations with fellow pastors here and there, good food sometimes :-) a decent and IMHO fruitful Ministerium meeting ... fun-filled humerous discussions, united prayer and intercession times together ... drives outside th hotel ... a number managed to go for some "shopping". I would have liked that we could visit the Orang Asli villages .. but we had to rush back ...

Maybe I should do a more detailed reflection tomorrow with some pictures. Hmm ...

It was good to come home to the kids and May Chin. The "forced" blog-fast (no access there - or at least no time) was in hindsight good ...

Random Links 37

A Theology of Technology
This is worth a read and I'll do it during the free time at the Lutheran pastors retreat (if we have any!) [via eQuip blog]

History and Biblical Narrative: A Reconstruction of Hans Frei's Eclipse of Biblical Narrative
Han Frei's name has cropped up more than oncein my reading and thoughts ... so I thought I might give Steve Bush's paper some time in Cameron as well ... I've been following his blog with interest especially tracking his thoughts on all things "emergent" :-)

my fellow bloggers: are you a “thinker” or a “linker”?
based on all these random links I'm putting up - I'm a linker. But I'm also a thinker-wannabe too!

Random Links 36

INTERNET LINKS FOR SEMINARIANS AND CLERGY COMPILED BY THOMAS F. McDANIEL, Ph.D.
.. I even found a link to Asian History .. cool! (Thanks to DJ Chuang)

AUTHOR INTERVIEW: KEVIN VANHOOZER
Vanhoozer says, " Yet it was not until my own sojourn in the far country--Britain--during my years teaching at the University of Edinburgh, that I began to conceive a vision for an evangelical theology that would be primarily constructive rather than primarily reactionary. This involved building bridges with nonevangelical theologians who are nevertheless orthodox." Interesing! (via Steve Bush)

FOCUS ON DARFUR AND COUNTDOWN TO CURRENT GENOCIDE?
There's hardly any news here in Malaysia on this .. strange.

Kingdom of Heaven Leader's Guide Available
I was surprised they are showing this movie here ... but looks like the Brehm Center is doing a good job providing resources.

NBC Links for the Book of Revelation
One of BLC's LiFe Group has taken the challenge which has caused me to get serious in understanding the book properly and not reactionarily (is there such a word?). I didn't know there's a show in USA on this.

Random Thoughts before Midnight

I'm looking forward to speak-facilitate-have fun-engage-in-conversations with a bunch of medical and pharmacy students tomorrow and Saturday. Their Christian fellowship president highlighted more than once in an email ... they are not nerds. Now I'm wondering whether I am one :-)

Just got two emails the last two days asking for my bio information ... hmm ... this makes me think deeper how should I describe myself .. what should I put in, what should I leave out ... My standard intro has been ... My name is Sivin Kit, I'm a man of one wife, Father of 2 kids for starters, Pastor of Bangsar Lutheran church, I think it's time to mention I'm the Emergent contact for Malaysia and am somehow part of the conversation and figuring out how to bring people together for further interaction, ... Hmm ... need to have something out by tomorrow.

It's going to be a pretty tight weekend with 4 sessions at a Varsity CF camp in Peace Haven, Genting, rush back and one Sunday morning message, then a 4 hour seminar (phew! I'm participating and not speaking! Still physically demanding), then next Monday off to Cameron highlands for the denomination pastors retreat I think I'm translating for at least 3 sessions and leading worship for one (maybe I should do a "let's be silent" for 30 minutes thing?) Then, back to KL for normal life - what normal life .. I'll miss the kids and my wife (must put that in coz she reads the blog! Hi dear!)

Pretty excited to see my article on Movies come out this week in the Kairos Magazine. And really looking forward to see the other one "Second thoughts on Children and more" coming out in July/August for an overseas publication (I'll mention it once it's finalized and printed.) I never imagined I'd having a chance to write these pieces. I enjoyed them thoroughly ..

I was really happy to sort out some administrative stuff for BLC and the educational programmes for the denomination. so, hopefully we'll be able to manage a simple 1 day seminar for pastors and an evening session for lay leaders. As usual, I'm more excited about the potential relationships that could grow out of that. A fellow pastor was on the phone with me and talked about organizing some sort of "forum" for pastors to engage in more serious and intense discussion or even debate on theological topics. We'll brianstorm some possibilities at the retreat. Then I'll ask our consultant in theology to organize that! :-) I've got enough load as it is ... but good suggestions.

May Chin is going back to work next monday so it's going to be another transition and adjustment for us ... God has been merciful, we have been merciful to each other and ourselves :-) It's quite a journey together .. now that it's the four of us in the family.

The Harambee Podcast

Thanks to Rudy Carrasco for making this podcast available where Andrew Jones talks about "emerging church". Some notes by Charles Wear. go ahead and click on and download this MP3

Random Thoughts around Midnight

Elysia has been really "good" the last few days ... and those little giggles and smiles have been awesome. The inquisitive look or frown is "cool" too ... I think May Chin is really going to miss the last two months of "nourishment" where she spent so much time with the kids .. especially our new born daughter.

It's interesting today when someone asked me about "emergent" .. and my first Malaysianized answer seemed to be OK. It basicallyed fumbled and revolved around exploring the Gospel within our given context, and seeking to understand what does it mean to "be" and "do" church, re-opening up questions on evangelism, discipleship, structures, change, leadership, etc .. I shared basically it's what drew me in the conversation was more on ecclesiological and missiological concerns and I wasn't too "entangled" by epistemological discussions (even though I felt they were still important). I guess, it's more of the order of importance and focus that I was trying to get at. nice to get to know a new friend ..

I totally enjoyed listening to 12 chapters of the Book of Revelation being read in one of our LiFe Groups today ... it took us around 40 minutes. It's quite a different and I think more rewarding experience when one hears the words than just merely reading them with our eyes.

I was delightfully surprised to hear of another couple thinking of marriage ... wow!

I'm happy for another friend who just safely delivered her first baby!

I thoroughly enjoyed a long awaited "solitude" time this morning ... and hope to catch another one before I plunge into a Christian Fellowship camp I'm speaking during the weekend.

There's still more than one pending stuff ... on my mind and shoulder ... I'm really surviving by God's grace ... and the patience of others :-)

Ah .. my hair is dry now ... so it's time to sleep ... I want to smile like Elysia in my sleep tonight :-) So, often we adults don't know how to sleep properly .. "... and the children will indeed lead the way!"

Random Links 35

How is it With Your Soul? : The Renovare movement fosters spiritual development as the heart of social justice.
Yesterday someone at church leaked during his prayer that he wasn't sure what the term "spiritual formation" meant. We laughed. Richard Foster, Dallas Willard and the Renovare movement helped me a lot during the last 10 years to understand the phrase and see how it works in my life.

What Significance Has 'Postmodernism' for Christian Faith?
"What makes Postmodernism so interesting today is that it lets us get on with business that we firmly believe we ought to be getting on with: careful discussion of those things that matter most in life." That's how Dallas Willard leads us in the discussion ...

Spiritual Direction: Meaning, Purpose, and Implications for Mental Health Professionals
while looking for some diagrams on the model of a human person, I stumbled on this. The implications are helpful for pastors as well.

the missional leadership shifts
I love charts ... they are more neat and tidy I admit but they do allow for clarity of thought and discussion. Then we'll plunge back into the messiness of life and leadership again. Thanks Tony Sheng for the link!

Worship Tricks
Jonny Baker has done us a great service by compiling this. Thanks.

Purgatory for Everyone
Thanks to Alan Creech for raising this subject. I need more thought on this. It's a touchy subject here.

Happy Birthday, Luv!

Many moons ago ... May Chin's Mom (who also has the same birth date!) went into labor on Labor Day and pop came this amazing woman ... who's now my amazing wife and wonderful mother of Gareth and Elysia. She's a great friend to many in her own quiet way ... she's a good employee at work and a consistent faithful follower of Christ!

Happy Birthday, luv (Thanks to the "No name yet" LiFe Group for a simple pre-celebration yesterday(Gareth loves birthday celebrations as you can see)! I think she ages better than me ... it must be the diet! :-)