Sivin Kit's Adventures

Archive for the ‘Conversations’ Category

I like the distinction of the church .. being attractive more than attractional.  While there’s nothing I would strongly disagree with Ed Stetzer (his answers are more  hurried, neat and tidy), I resonate more with how David Fitch articulates his thoughts (esp. on incarnational and witness).

Interesting to note that when Ed Stetzer gave examples his focus was on the big ones in Korea, Nigeria and Latin America. But in Malaysia and big parts of Asia, while there are “mega churches” and doing good ministry and seeking to be faithful in mission, but I wonder whether this kind of focus is helpful when most of us cannot relate to the “mega church” paradigm. Again Ed has some good insights and well thought through, but it tends to be neat and tidy. so, far in the 2 videos he talks the most seemingly cramming in as much as possible.

However, while David Fitch is slower, with more pauses, he is less defensive and apologetic, maybe it’s simply because of where I am today theologically, ecclesiologically, and missiologically  I would find myself relating more to what David says. Probably, my friends who are in different settings would be drawn to what Ed says.

So .. let’s continue to see how things evolve.

* * *

(updated with part III and my feeble second thoughts!)

What a delightful surprise to get some comments from even Ed Stetzer! Thanks guys.

Ed StetzerOctober 4th, 2009 at 9:04 am  

Hurried, neat, and tidy.

My life.

Ed

Bill KinnonOctober 4th, 2009 at 9:49 pm 

Sivin,
Good comments – I very much appreciate your perspective on this. Part III is now up, as well.

Dave & Ed come at missional from very different perspectives. What I love most about the conversation is how much fun they had doing it. Modelling unity whilst having some fairly profound differences in perspective.

Ed’s brain does go at a million miles an hour – so I don’t see him cramming stuff in but rather that’s just how fast he processes stuff. And Dave’s delivery reminds me a little of Jack Nicholson.

The beauty of the internet is for the possibility for an engagement like this.  But first on my first impressions of the “conversation” (perhaps more second thoughts). 

To start off . on a more human and personal level, it’s a great conversation.  And I agree with Bill that it’s a great example of how to engage in a conversation like this.

On a humorous level and in terms of delivery, I too was thinking of Jack Nicholson when Dave was speaking too.

Now, for the record, as I said earlier I don’t have much I’d totally disagree with Ed.  And of course, the limits of merely watching a video like this for both Dave and Ed, is that we do not have a personal relationship (perhaps after this we will) and thus appreciate the nuances Bill mentions e.g. “Ed’s brain does go at a million miles an hour”

So, first impressions out of the way.  Now some second thoughts.

For someone not living in the USA context, I’m very much aware how much of the conversation by both Dave and Ed is shaped by it.  It’s where they live and breath.  This is most evident in my humble opinion on a substantial amount of reference to the “Mega church” phenomena and the general Evangelical landscape there.

So, what I see is a helpful critical engagement missiologically and theologically (as well as Ed’s repeated reminder Biblically) on the given location and context the churches in USA are living in.  I thought Dave’s interesting push-back on where some “mega churches” are succeeding in places like Texas, is worth more in depth discussion.

Ed’s reference to Nigeria, South Korea, and Latin America is noteworthy.  Because it’s one of the few places where the conversation was nudged a little more globally.  I recall Dave mentioned Europe a little. And I think is actually crucial in the conversation.  Because, theologically we would anchor our “missional” conversation on God’s mission for the World. And if we could reflect that more in our local reflections then I think it helps to do some needed check and balances.

I can comment a little on South Korea, since I’ve been in Seoul and have been in conversation with friends in Christian ministry at different points. And one of the things they are known for is the “mega church”, cell groups and prayer (and also missionary sending). However, on the ground from what I hear from some Koreans, there’s also the serious challenge of competitiveness, disunity, losing the younger generations, reverts back to Buddhism, the stagnation of Christianity, etc. which often is not mention as we talk about the successes.

Now while we celebrate each other, we also seek to honestly step back and ask hard questions. So, for me this kind of honest conversation is needed as Ed and Dave have modeled in the USA context for us in a global context as well.

I have good friends in more “mega-church” like churches in Malaysia.  So, while I personally do not feel called to lead one, this is a given reality for many of my friends who may not be the senior pastor, or find themselves moving in that direction. 

To me, Ed’s words would be very helpful to them from a constructive point of view if they continue to be that context. I would also guess that for many in Malaysia since most would probably fall into the “Evangelical-Pentecostal-Charismatic” (EPC) stream will find the way Ed articulates his theology safer for them to engage in more “missional” perspectives. 

But there will be those like me (maybe), where I’d even question theologically the helpfulness of articulating in EPC language when engaging a majority Muslim and pluralistic context.  This is further accentuated by the socio-political climate we are in currently in Malaysia.  Thus, the place for ways of articulating and reflecting theologically like Dave is more helpful.  Both are needed.

Perhaps, more is needed in my view to speak beyond EPC (it’s almost impossible to be a theological liberal in Asia and survive!) and “Practical” categories as this is in some ways at least for a lot of the Chinese speaking and English speaking churches what we are already very comfortable with.  And my personal gripe with the Malaysian situation is the need for more “self-theologizing” (after the missiological three-self formula).

That “self-theologizing” process would keep in mind starting from a local context (and yet intentionally global in outlook), engaged in reflexive Scriptural engagement (some might prefer the term biblical) and highly theologically robust (not as in a tight theological system but in community with others while appreciating differences).

There are many side issues we could delve in, e.g. the whole impact of Christian publishing (usually birthed out of USA), or the lack of critical thinking on our side here in Malaysia or Asia buying ideas lock, stock and barrel from our friends from the west, or the lack of confidence in our own thoughts (and thus reflected even in the low view we have even with our own ministries with the indigenous people), etc.  so, there’s a wide variety of side issues which need to be brought in to double check the missional vision we are talking about.

Well, here I sit, I can do no other . with my not so neat, and very much untidy but still a little hurried thoughts.

I shared this idea “Holy Fool” as part of my Father’s Day message today. This article Holy Fools: Ushers of the next generation in the church would be a good follow up (with a good specific application to the church). I’ll pick out some highlights and see whether I can enter into a conversation with them

“If we perceive our problem today as one of antiquated structures, patriarchal control, centuries of scandal, single-issue obsessions, and moralisms instead of humility before transcendence, then one can probably create a good rationale for leaving the church institutions. In fact, with the information I have acquired, I might even hurry you out the door.

But I don’t think this is a correct diagnosis of the sickness we are experiencing. It goes far deeper, I’m afraid, than current perpetrator-victim typologies. I am convinced that we are up against the real disintegration of the Western psyche. To compensate for the loss of control and meaning, we find a rigidity of response on both sides of most questions and issues.”

I agree with Rohr on this one. And I feel too much energy is being drained into blame reactions, or self-defeating prophecies … which after a while becomes excuses for in action. I’ve heard rigid responses from church leaders.  And I’ve heard equally rigid responses from the unchurched. The same goes with religious church goers and irreligious atheist.  After a while, it all sounds the same .. the words are different. But basically, it’s the blame game!

“The function of healthy religion and church is to provide individuals and society with a collective container that carries the objective truth of reality for individuals. The Great Truth is too grand and transcultural to be entrusted to the vagaries of individuals and epochs. Otherwise, society becomes a massive runway for unidentifiable flying objects—each claiming absolute validity and turning their subjectivity into the only sacred. The ground for a common civilization and shared values is destroyed if our religious experience is basically unshareable or without coherent meaning. We end up where we are today: pluralism without purpose, individuation but no community.”

Healthy religion and church … I’m working on that, in fact the past 7 years has been an uphill struggle to see this become a reality. It’s more manageable in my own spiritual journey. But the challenge is multiplied when I’m trying to invite others along the journey. The temptation to be locked into “reactionary” mode seems to be one of the most paralyzing factors. In short, we seem to be stuck (often unconsciously) battling the “unhealthy” religion and church experiences we’ve had. But is that the only way to go? I don’t think so .. but it requires discipline to avoid slipping into default “reactionary” mode. I do speak as someone sympathetic and tried very hard to address what I see as problems in our religious understanding and practices. But, like what Rohr highlighted getting stuck in “perpetrator-victim typologies” seems to be getting us no where.

“we have a whole new set of questions to ask about church, about justice, about survival. The present preoccupation with “rights” language will have to evolve into an equal or even stronger language of responsibility. The present fascination with the individual and his or her individuation process will have to be severely tempered by the demands of community and universality. The secular definition of freedom as the “freedom to make choices” will need the biblical, Buddhist, Islamic, and Taoist mandate of freedom from ego and freedom for truth.”

I feel this even stronger in the Malaysian context these days.  Especially after trying to be sympathetic (even though I may disagree) with those who hold on to different religious ultimate commitments.  There is a legitimate concern over the mere “rights”-framed discourse.  The place to talk about “responsibility” is needed.  And it starts at the place where no one is looking.  It’s both personal and public.   I’ve tried to listen to those who emphasize “Freedom” as “freedom to make choices”.  Somehow, while I think that “freedom to make choices cannot be taken away but there’s something missing in this way of thinking … those around us are not brought into the equation enough … the facts is our choices to not merely affect ourselves, and this is where the language of responsibility needs extra support. So in this tension is where creative responses is needed. Of course,  cynicism is always knocking on our doors.

“It will be “holy fools” who will lead us into a new future and the next generation of church. The holy fool is who the Bible and mythic literature have always presented as the “savior.” Holy fools are happily, but not naively, innocent of everything that the rest of us take as self-evident. It is the last stage of the wisdom journey: Jesus in his parables, Francis in his patches, and Dorothy Day obedient to petty churchmen for paramount reasons. Reasonable people will always be able to criticize such fools, but they bring to every exile a whole new way of imagining—and thereby usher in the new age.”

Holy Fools .. may more of them emerge.

 ”I stay in the church because all the new patterns are really old patterns. I stay because everybody else can only address the symptoms. I stay because it continually clears new ground wider and deeper than mere ideology. I stay because Jesus alone creates a lifestyle that can’t be bought off, an ethic that refuses power, position, and possessions, a vision that is subject to no judgment or vested interest less than God’s plan for the whole. Nobody is possibly going to do better than that.

I know! I know it only happens in a small percentage of Christians and in an even smaller percentage of congregations. But it does happen with some regularity; it is in the training manual, and we even have full permission to keep talking about it, no matter who is in charge at the moment.”

This is where I want to focus my energies on even if it’s a small percentage.  And this is where I want to give my support and encouragement on.  I was told by implication that church leaders might not support those who want to fulfill a meaningful vocation in the “Secular” arena.  I think there’s  some truth in that.

But the flip side  (at least from my view) needs to be heard.  I’ve been trying to support and encourage those who “seriously” see this as their calling to either be in the marketplace and even in NGOs … or even social activism – of course, with a healthy spirituality and humble theology undergirding their efforts.  I feel this is the least I can do as one connected to the “church” or “leadership” (however one defines it).  There has been a small percentage of encouraging responses .. with some struggle of course.  I know many have not gotten the due support and affirmation needed.

But where encouragement is given and even spiritual support/guidance offered (note: not in a I-know-it-all way but genuinely!),  why is the supportive churches or leaders are then shoved aside by these “socially-engaged” or “enlightened” Christians?  why must the church be sidelined when she wants to fulfill her role albeit a smaller scale and is making small steps for that to happen? Is that not what we all hope for in the first place?

I wonder is that part of the journey of the Holy Fool?  My daughter is calling me to bathe … ah …all this has got to start at home somewhere.

I’m getting a hang of using wordpress after using movabletype since the day this blog was born … wow in 2002! Look at the archives.

Spending with Phil Baker and Mike Fonner was an absolute joy. They are very much more our seniors in terms of ministry and life experience. And yet the posture they came with was one of listening, conversation and being open to how the Church or Christians worldwide who share common concerns can move forward together.

I think we need space like this to talk and listen. When there’s no pressure towards a predetermined goal or agenda, ironically the freedom generates more heartfelt musings which ultimately might lead to some REAL possilities.

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My friend Sherman Kuek has a new surge of blogging energy before his engagement … which is a good sign, It’s concentrated here in Universal Particularities? for a start.

For me it’s interesting how this “contextual” bit needs to be stressed in his blog. Perhaps not so much for those who are already aware that all theology by any human being on this planet earth whether formally or informally is carried out in particular contexts. It’s plain honest admission and needed awareness.

I wonder is the unspoken problem being addressed here is that there are still many in our Malaysian context who struggle to see this fact? And the temptation is to jump into making assertions as if what we say and think IS untainted, pure and totally objective? And is there a fear of admitting that means we have lost confidence in the Gospel?

After walking out of a Christian bookstore this week, I left being thankful of the many good resources in English that we have in Malaysia (at least in the Klang Valley). But I couldn’t help see that we are still flooded with much material from the helpful as well as not so helpful which arise from contexts which are not from our soil. Now this does not mean we cannot learn from them, but I wonder in the long run are we unconsciously and even uncritically taking all if not most of what is contain in those pages as normative to our church, christian life and thinking?

Surely, being reactionary and ignoring these books for example would only make us “frogs at the bottom of the well” (to allude to a Malay saying). But have we not come to a place where we can write, produce and share our own reflections (albeit even in conversation with the best of thoughts from afar).

Of course, for me as a pastor, it came to a point where I needed to re-orientate my mind a little in this process. And even come to a place where when i say “I think we can understand this or that from our angle” not in any prideful reactionary mode but in a mode freed from a mind which may have allowed myself to be “colonized” by the agenda of those who probably never did have our context in mind when they penned those words into those pages (not that I expect them to all the time).

I know it can be painful for some of us when we allow for our beliefs to be re-examined (Note: this is a careful and respectful process for some of us, because it’s not mere intellectual exercises but genuine spiritual searching!). The context forces new questions for us, e.g. how is one initiated into the reign of God? How does one begin to follow Jesus? I was taught it begins with “saying the sinner’s prayer”, and today I still see value in encouraging people to pray no matter what stage they are in .. whether in the beginning, half-way or at the end of their earthly lives. But then once we go on a course of re-examining often with the practices, then we will soon ask questions about spirituality which leads to theology.

When all these questions surface, a hunger and thirst arises to be on a quest to find answers. In in some cases, re-examining even our questions. And this whole process is an expression of our love for God and life.

As a Christ-follower, I found myself returning to the Gospels again and allow Jesus to confront the ways I may or may not have domesticated him. I’ve always been delightfully kicked by the prophetic literature in the Old Testament. The wisdom books have grown in its relevance to a lot of the practicalities of our searching. I listened to the whole letter to the Ephesians in the car a while ago and was re-hearing afresh how the order of relationships in the family and in the workplace have been injected with new meaning because of the impact of the Gospel upon all spheres of life.

Early on in seminary, the desert fathers reminded me how early Christians wrestled with their context, and through out history we have stories and samples on how different people work our their responses in heart and mind. We continue in their line when we do the same here and now in our contexts. Regurgitating the past or having a nostalgic and naive view of church history isn’t going to take is far (in fact we might be drawn backwards)

There’s surely more that I’d like to say … but we cannot and must not “close our minds” before we’ve “opened” to all the best as well as the worst lessons we need to plough through. This is a self-critical process as well … which needs to be done in conversation and in community with friends along the same path as well as critics as well.

The problem I see is that we in Malaysia at least (can’t speak for Asia) may have often fallen in to the disempowering position of privileging theologies (as well as methodologies) risen from foreign contexts and lost the confidence in our own engagement with the Scriptures, discernment of the Spirit, and listening to our cultures and contexts seriously. I look at my own bookshelf and recognize how easily I’m also trapped in my own critique. And yet, I believe and imagine a new future invading our present.

I seem to hear the Spirit calling us … can we hear the voice of God whispering to us?

Music – http://inewage.com/

well … the sleep was short. Perhaps, this is a good time for prayer

The Presence of God
I can hear the wind from the fan spinning … just one car zoomed by.

Freedom
Hardly any noise … it’s pretty silent .. I turn off the music – getting distracting. Breath slower … “the Jesus Prayer” … “Lord, Jesus, son of God … have mercy on me”

Consciousness
A drink of warm water … pause … less frustrated … treasure this space … less burdened … at ease.

The Word
Matthew 13:44-46 (the message)

“Not just a single act of renunciation … priority all through our life, every decision we make”

Conversation
“I’m right now an accumulation of the many decisions (big as well as small) I’ve made … some were dramatic, nowadays less so but no less significant … at times more visible … mostly unnoticed … sometimes I’m unsure where one decision will take me … looking back whether through joy or pain … it’s part of the journey … I embrace the consequences … I learn again … I think there’s improvement or better discernment … one thing is clearer … my sinfulness, my humanity … your grace and your kingdom…”

Conclusion
some old burdens are still on when the sun rises … hope to relieve them, and move on … there are other priorities .. more precious stuff awaits .. Amen!

Music is on from Cryosleep

Prayer from Today with the help of Sacred Gateway

Taking note of “the Presence of God” – the surrounding cars are a little noisy – busy people rushing from one place to another – in a house alone – had a cup of water … my thirst is quenched.

Moving to some level of “Freedom” … the noise level is coming down. I’m more a ware and yet less bothered. I’m entering a state of being where I’m more ready to listen.

Now it’s just in a mode of “Consciousness” where I can feel calmer – less burdened somehow … perhaps the nap (which I didn’t plan) allowed physical stress to just be released. My head is lighter … feel less entangled within … more space?

the “Word” is before me … I slow down a little more. Mathew 20:20-28.

“What do you want?”

“You do not know what you are asking …”

I sit before my Lord … and we enter “Conversation”

“I seem to have some ideas what do I want? but do I know what am I asking for? In the midst of wanting, I expose my desires and motivations, some noble others unsure, perhaps there are some self-centred, sinful … You show me the cup we are to drink …. I re-examine what I want … and what is REALLY before me…”

I step into a transition under the title “Conclusion”. A conclusion for now this moment where I pause, ponder and pray … entering a moment of contemplation is a moment of grace … and yet, life here and now steps back into the dusty roads I’ll be driving on in a little while … and the grace is not left behind … the presence has not evaporated …

I was very excited facilitating the informal dinner at Little Penang Cafe at Mid Valley whicih later moved to Starbucks tonight. I’m missing from the picture (which I don’t mind really!) because I’m capturing this moment.

I felt it was a good mix … On the left Rev. Tang (who’s interest includes contemplative spirituality & church history), next to him is Pastor Chan (who’s interest is in his words politics & public theology) both are the Chinese speaking pastors of our denomination. On the right, Dr. Truscott (who’’s focus is on historical theology – specifically on Chrstian initiation & liturgy as well as Cathecumunate) paying us a friendly visit and Rev. Greininger (who’s interest includes theology & practical ministry) our close friend offering perspectives from America and Germany respectively (with insights from their experiences in Japan as well as Papa New Guinea). This is the kind of dialogue, laughter, conversation and interaction that I find so nourishing and fun!

We moved in and out of all kinds of topics from Malaysian food to our ministry experiences, some joys and frustrations with our contexts and observations. We talked about Christian Initiation, affirmation, rites of passage, llturgy and it’s relation in a communal faith as well as a link to the world we live in. We tossed ideas on what it means to work constructively and creatively, how we can engage people who do not use overtly “theological categories” but think more in “practical categories” (I borrowed this insight from listening to Doug Pagitt last night … very helpful). Of course, I admit there were not many conclusions that we came to … but that’s the nature of conversation … in it’s informality we are given space to allow our minds to try out different options and directions.

I believe we will use different contexts and opportunities to settle on some more concrete answers, work-in-progress models, and flexible strategies or steps forward. So, it’s nice to bring my fellow Lutherans together representing in someway the east and the west, academic and pastoral, theological and practical, etc. I find joy in “creating” or “facilitating” environments like this.

I could imagine a little how Luther’s table talks were … just a little. Maybe not so much in form (coffee replaced beer in this case) but definately in substance!

“Learning by puzzlement …” that was the key point our facilitator Dr. Philipp Hauenstein tried to communicate to a bunch of people gathered from all over the world for this three week long summer school.

I managed to google a paper written by him “‘Between Excitement and Culture Shock’ – Some Remarks on Intercultural Learning” The main ideas are found there as well (minus the diagrams).

As a more visual person, I liked the three main metaphors he used to help us get some understanding on this.

1. Onion - there are many layers that help us get a fuller picture of ours and other people’s culture.
2. Iceberg – “You can see the top only. What really matters is underneath”
3. Glasses – we most definately have our own “interpretive” bias (whether as a host or a visitor in a given culture)

I found this to be true even in my interaction with fellow Chinese from Hong Kong, Mainland China or Taiwan. How much more with other countries! At times I wonder whether I’ve been rude, or when it comes to others what they said might be “offensive” to me. But in a situation like this, my “awareness” is higher because it’s obvious.

But, back home it’s easier to put this “sensitivity” aside because one assumes everyone is on the same page. But that may not be true, and often is not true. And especially in blogland or the internet, I begin to see that just because we use “English” for example it doesn’t really mean we “get” what one another is saying. Thus, the recent “face-to-face” contacts really helped me so much.
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It took me some time, but I managed to try to organize the discussion forums for at least three books that will guide some of our thinking the next few months. All are catalyzed (is there such a word?) by real people who desire to learn together and see what could happen next!

1. A bunch of us who are the BLC council members decided to buy a book each and reflect together on the Emerging Church.

2. I suppose if those of us who are trying to get the Emergent Malaysia off the ground, we can surely begin with the “Godfather’s” thoughts from The Church on the Other Side. (And my first ever book review for Kairos Magazine was on this book, so … )

3. And finally, something more personal which three of us part of the “Next Up!” spiritual friendship group that got kick started in strange circumstances on Courage and Calling.